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This will be Microsofts biggest ever flop, far bigger than Vista.


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SIW2

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#41
They got exactly that feedback from WDP.

What you see in WCP is delberate.

They do not want to make any changes - just bug fixes.

They are gunning for the average user with simple needs.

They have kept the full scale os as well for the enthusiast - but because the ui is aimed at the average Joe - the enthusiast will have to find his own workarounds.



If Microsoft see's enough of these complaints they will have to listen.

It wouldn't be too difficult to set up a classic PC mode which would retain the old style start menu. The Metro UI needs to have an optional button as well because it's really more of an I-pad or touch screen for a phone interface. Some of those Apps are pretty cool actually.

If you think about it Msoft really had no other option but to create the Metro interface in order to compete with the other touch screen Op systems. They just need the option for a classic start screen and have an optional Metro UI. If they don't then third party software will be reaping the rewards.

I'm not so sure I like having to sign in with my windows live account every time I start up so they should make that optional as well.

Once your at the desk top navigating between Metro/Apps is much faster using the Windows key, Windows key + Q or Windows key + C.

There simply needs to be options for all these controls rather than forcing everyone to do it the new "slower" way. That would appease the masses yet still retain the option for a fully functional touch screen Op system.
 

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lehnerus2000

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#42
Interesting

Each one individually, one at a time.
That's far easier than just deleting a folder.
Just a tip, if you didn't notice:
You can right click several tiles (icons) and click clear only once to mass delete.
Still slower than deleting folder, but at least faster than deleting each one individually
Thanks for that tip. :)

  • Opening the "Task Manager" every time you want to kill an app.
Why do I keep reading this when it has been posted several times about the various (simple) ways of closing apps. The easiest is to right-click in the left hand list and click on close!
Maybe because it is a stupid idea?
What's so difficult about having a close button on the app screen itself, like every program has had for the last ~20 years?

That's the first time I've seen that mentioned.
Wow that's really intuitive. :sarc:

Previously I've seen someone suggest that if you ignore an app, it will "go away" by itself, eventually.

Thanks for that tip. :)

I tried in Search typing System and could find System Information immediately, I understand it takes time to get used to the new OS but believe me, it's a nice OS shame about the fish. View attachment 3632
Interesting.

When I did it, no results related to "System Information" appeared.
When I typed "msinfo32", no results appeared until I typed the entire name.
 
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Spaisekraft

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#43
Things are different, but everything you know and love is still there. In my opinion, it's all been improved upon.

On logging in for the first time you are confronted with the Metro start screen. It then takes ages to find things like the Network Centre, Control Panel, Windows Explorer etc. as they are not on the initial Metro start screen.

All of these things can be found just by typing their name in the start screen. Or what's better is you hit Win+C (or mouse to top right or bottom right) and open the charms menu. From the settings you can access everything. I very much like having those necessary but infrequently used options slightly more hidden, but still easily accessible.

You have to hunt around the entire OS to find them and then either make shortcuts to the Metro UI or pin them to the desktop taskbar to access them quickly. MS have also deliberately removed the old ‘Start’ button from the bottom left hand corner of the desktop screen, making it a nightmare to navigate anywhere if you want to quickly open a programme that is not pinned to your desktop taskbar.

Just like I said above, all you need to do is hit the windows key and type the name of the program, just like in W7, except now it's MUCH faster. Or you can right click the start screen and press "All Apps" or even press Win+Q to jump directly to the app screen. The app screen does *exactly* what the program files list did in W7, except it's more organized. You can even separate apps into groups on the start screen: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6800062/windows8startscreen1.png

This makes trying to work productively a complete joke. Whoever thought that removing the START button from the desktop screen was a good idea should be taken out and publicly flogged and pelted with rotten vegetables. A decision some brainless cretin at MS seems to have made.

All it takes is a tiny bit of re-learning and you're faster than you were on W7. I frequently have a bunch of windows open like PS, voip, browsers, etc. and I am having zero trouble. I'd say I'm more productive than on W7. A clean environment helps with that.

As for the Metro UI start screen, it works well on a mobile phone or tablet maybe but certainly not in the desktop environment. You can no longer simply install shortcuts to programmes on your desktop screen, they get placed on MS’s new Metro start screen, a screen designed specifically for tablets and touch screen monitors in combination with swipe movements on the touchscreen. The entire Metro UI is designed for swiping across the screen on a tablet, not for desktop use with keyboard and mouse. There is no option to turn off the Metro UI and just use the familiar Windows desktop UI with Start button in the bottom left hand corner most Windows users are used to.

The new start screen is basically the old start menu on crack. It does everything the old start menu does, and more. You can still install icons to the desktop, I'm not sure how you managed to not do that as that's the default behavior. Never will an app ONLY show an icon on the start screen and nowhere else by default. The only time that may happen is if a program doesn't set an icon on the desktop during the install process, in which case you'll find it on the start screen and in the app list. Microsoft does need to add an option to add an icon to the desktop from the app screen, I'll give you that.

As for trying to shut down your computer in Windows 8, it took me a search on Google to work out how to shut down the computer in Windows 8. Shutdown Windows 8 Consumer Preview « FAQforge Unbelievably user unfriendly.

This one I'm a little more inclined to agree with you on. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's "unbelievably user unfriendly" just because it wasn't obvious. I'm sure Microsoft will have a little tutorial for new users explaining to them how things have changed and where their old locations are now. I really like where the shutdown menu is now that I know where it is. :)

This is going to be a disaster for Microsoft, a bigger flop than Vista ever was. I already dislike Windows 8 and that’s only after 2 days of using it with a keyboard and mouse. No company in their right mind is going to buy this nonsensical operating system when it comes to IT productivity and ease of use. What on Earth are Microsoft thinking? That companies will all dump their desktop computers and buy tablets with a 7″screen to use Windows 8 in the workplace and pay for a lot of IT training so employees can find their way around this horror? I really don’t think so. Excel spreadsheets and writing long reports in Word on a 7 or 10 inch screen with touchscreen keyboard. Nice experience? Mmm, Idon’t think so. More like buy Windows 8 and lose lots of money through a lack of productivity.

So far, using Windows 8 is turning out to be the most frustrating and unenjoyable experience I’ve ever had on a desktop computer. MS have got a lot of work to do in order to make Windows 8 user friendly enough for those who prefer desktop computing to get any productive work done.

If this is the future of Microsoft Windows it looks as though I’ll either be sticking with Windows 7, or I’ll be switching to Linux. By the looks of it I wont be in the minority. Welcome to Vista 2 from Microsoft.

Vista was bad because it was a resource hog and just terribly optimized. Every single reason you outlined for not liking W8 was because you're not used to the changes. I'm sure Microsoft will have a shiny little tutorial for non-power-users like yourself when the OS is actually out.
 

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Vertex

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#44
As far I can see the average is not having problem with it. The ones that have problems with it are Windows veterans and power users.
Your average user is loving all dumbed down stuff. And it feels intuitive for them...
I installed Windows Developer Preview to a few guys not long ago just for them to test it, told them to update it soon. They were perhaps on a lower computer experience than me and with the Metro, they find it hard to navigate to. Its just gonna take extra effort to learn this stuff so I don't believe you that "your average user is loving all dumbed down stuff" because the ones I saw do not and would rather stay on something they are familiar with that gets the job done rather than something that they think will take extra time to learn or something that just gets in the way like what the Metro Start Screen is.

The veterans and the power users may be the ones having problems with it but they are the ones who can make workarounds and some alternative solutions to this problem because they developed instincts from experience, but more people are on the "average" level and many of these guys see this new UI a pain just as they see it.


You do realise that you can easily unpin those Metro apps that none cares about?
On top of that you can easily move your apps to the left side of start menu.

To be honest, it maybe just me. I never really liked using classic start menu to find or organise my programs. I had to use it in Windows XP, 95 and etc. But the search in Windows 7 was almost the biggest thing I love about it.

I knew all my software by name, So never had to manually search for icons in start menu/folders.
That may be the reason why I don't miss it. I am still just writing whatever software I want to run and I am finding Windows 8 indexing even superior to Windows 7 (which I love..)
Many average users won't even think of unpinning those Metro apps because they don't know that is possible after the initial mind shock of seeing this new interface and once unpinned, they would think, how do you get them back. I challenge Metro defenders, how is this new UI to a huge margin better than the old UI if the Metro screen blocks everything else running on the Desktop once its launched? You can still make Desktop shortcuts or pin a few on the Taskbar but there are still things many people are accustomed to in using the old Start Menu. M$ is just forcing people to move to the tablet market.
 

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lehnerus2000

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#45
I'm sure Microsoft will have a shiny little tutorial for non-power-users like yourself when the OS is actually out.
MS aren't capable of producing sensible "Help" and "Tutorials". :cry:

That's why:

  • They introduced the "Ribbon" (i.e they couldn't explain how to use the menus in Office).
  • Sites like SevenForums and EightForums have hordes of tutorials like, "Windows Explorer Folder View - Change Icon Size & Layout in Windows 8".
 

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Spaisekraft

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#46
As far I can see the average is not having problem with it. The ones that have problems with it are Windows veterans and power users.
Your average user is loving all dumbed down stuff. And it feels intuitive for them...
I installed Windows Developer Preview to a few guys not long ago just for them to test it, told them to update it soon. They were perhaps on a lower computer experience than me and with the Metro, they find it hard to navigate to. Its just gonna take extra effort to learn this stuff so I don't believe you that "your average user is loving all dumbed down stuff" because the ones I saw do not and would rather stay on something they are familiar with that gets the job done rather than something that they think will take extra time to learn or something that just gets in the way like what the Metro Start Screen is.

The veterans and the power users may be the ones having problems with it but they are the ones who can make workarounds and some alternative solutions to this problem because they developed instincts from experience, but more people are on the "average" level and many of these guys see this new UI a pain just as they see it.


You do realise that you can easily unpin those Metro apps that none cares about?
On top of that you can easily move your apps to the left side of start menu.

To be honest, it maybe just me. I never really liked using classic start menu to find or organise my programs. I had to use it in Windows XP, 95 and etc. But the search in Windows 7 was almost the biggest thing I love about it.

I knew all my software by name, So never had to manually search for icons in start menu/folders.
That may be the reason why I don't miss it. I am still just writing whatever software I want to run and I am finding Windows 8 indexing even superior to Windows 7 (which I love..)
Many average users won't even think of unpinning those Metro apps because they don't know that is possible after the initial mind shock of seeing this new interface and once unpinned, they would think, how do you get them back. I challenge Metro defenders, how is this new UI to a huge margin better than the old UI if the Metro screen blocks everything else running on the Desktop once its launched? You can still make Desktop shortcuts or pin a few on the Taskbar but there are still things many people are accustomed to in using the old Start Menu. M$ is just forcing people to move to the tablet market.
The metro start screen doesn't block anything. For me, it's mostly running in the background while I have the classic desktop open. The only time I see the metro start screen is when I'm launching a new app, because I don't like having icons on my desktop. I don't see how you think it's blocking anything, it's all right there.

Tell me something people are used to that they are missing in W8 and I'll show you where it is and how to access it.
 

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whs

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#47
Who needs the Metro. I am going back to the old days and work with keyboard shortcuts. Here are my favorites (there are a lot more): Try Win+X that a member posted earlier. It is really neat.


Desktop ---> Win+D
Metro ----> CTL+ESC
Charms ----> Win+C
Explorer ----> Win+E
Search ----> Win+F
Settings ----> Win+I
App Bar ----> Win+Z
Closing Apps ----> Windows + CTRL + TAB
System Programs ----> Win+X
 

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Vertex

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#48
The metro start screen doesn't block anything. For me, it's mostly running in the background while I have the classic desktop open. The only time I see the metro start screen is when I'm launching a new app, because I don't like having icons on my desktop. I don't see how you think it's blocking anything, it's all right there.

Tell me something people are used to that they are missing in W8 and I'll show you where it is and how to access it.
Come on, its blocking the whole freaking Desktop and everything else in it when its launched, would that be so hard to understand??

New users would take more clicks and movements to get around this thing and there are guys who don't want this kind of change if they think it hinders their speed of work especially those working in offices.

Now the old Start Button on the left and how its old Start Menu works and behaves are what's missing. At least that one does not have the Power button hidden under "Settings"...
 

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Spaisekraft

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#49
The metro start screen doesn't block anything. For me, it's mostly running in the background while I have the classic desktop open. The only time I see the metro start screen is when I'm launching a new app, because I don't like having icons on my desktop. I don't see how you think it's blocking anything, it's all right there.

Tell me something people are used to that they are missing in W8 and I'll show you where it is and how to access it.
Come on, its blocking the whole freaking Desktop and everything else in it when its launched, would that be so hard to understand??

New users would take more clicks and movements to get around this thing and there are guys who don't want this kind of change if they think it hinders their speed of work especially those working in offices.

Now the old Start Button on the left and how its old Start Menu works and behaves are what's missing. At least that one does not have the Power button hidden under "Settings"...
It's not blocking anything. Boot up windows, click the desktop icon. Bam, back to the desktop. Need to open a program? Windows key (or click the bottom left corner) and click a pinned app you use frequently. Don't have it pinned? Just start typing the name and hit enter. Don't like typing? Right click and view all apps and DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING YOU'D DO IN THE OLD START MENU TO FIND AN APPLICATION.

What people fail to realize is that the start screen does *everything* the old start menu did, but it allows for more personalization and customization. This is what my start screen looks like: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6800062/windows8startscreen1.png

It serves the same functions the old start menu did; show my favorite pinned apps. I can still open explorer, I can still get to control panel, I can still get to the network settings, I can still get to my pictures, I can still get to EVERYTHING the old menu system offered.

The ONE problem I have with the new start screen is that you can't create a desktop shortcut from the app list. But this is beta, and I'm sure they'll add more features before it's released.
 

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Vertex

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#50
It's not blocking anything. Boot up windows, click the desktop icon. Bam, back to the desktop. Need to open a program? Windows key (or click the bottom left corner) and click a pinned app you use frequently. Don't have it pinned? Just start typing the name and hit enter. Don't like typing? Right click and view all apps and DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING YOU'D DO IN THE OLD START MENU TO FIND AN APPLICATION.

What people fail to realize is that the start screen does *everything* the old start menu did, but it allows for more personalization and customization. This is what my start screen looks like: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6800062/windows8startscreen1.png

It serves the same functions the old start menu did; show my favorite pinned apps. I can still open explorer, I can still get to control panel, I can still get to the network settings, I can still get to my pictures, I can still get to EVERYTHING the old menu system offered.

The ONE problem I have with the new start screen is that you can't create a desktop shortcut from the app list. But this is beta, and I'm sure they'll add more features before it's released.
It is blocking the Desktop whenever there is a time it needs to be launched, I don't understand why you insist it isn't when obviously it is. This whole full screen thing is not my preference and when you right click on a tile on the Metro, it does not have a good context menu as right clicking those items in the old Start Menu. The old Start menu also gives you quick access to locations like Documents, Pictures, Music, Recent Items, Run Command without typing anything. The full screen thing is just not an efficient space saver to me. Plus the new Control Panel on the Metro is a bit confusing to new users. So to a sense, the Metro Start Screen does NOT do all what the old Start Menu has to offer.
 

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#51
It's not blocking anything. Boot up windows, click the desktop icon. Bam, back to the desktop. Need to open a program? Windows key (or click the bottom left corner) and click a pinned app you use frequently. Don't have it pinned? Just start typing the name and hit enter. Don't like typing? Right click and view all apps and DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING YOU'D DO IN THE OLD START MENU TO FIND AN APPLICATION.

What people fail to realize is that the start screen does *everything* the old start menu did, but it allows for more personalization and customization. This is what my start screen looks like: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6800062/windows8startscreen1.png

It serves the same functions the old start menu did; show my favorite pinned apps. I can still open explorer, I can still get to control panel, I can still get to the network settings, I can still get to my pictures, I can still get to EVERYTHING the old menu system offered.

The ONE problem I have with the new start screen is that you can't create a desktop shortcut from the app list. But this is beta, and I'm sure they'll add more features before it's released.
It is blocking the Desktop whenever there is a time it needs to be launched, I don't understand why you insist it isn't when obviously it is. This whole full screen thing is not my preference and when you right click on a tile on the Metro, it does not have a good context menu as right clicking those items in the old Start Menu. The old Start menu also gives you quick access to locations like Documents, Pictures, Music, Recent Items, Run Command without typing anything. The full screen thing is just not an efficient space saver to me. Plus the new Control Panel on the Metro is a bit confusing to new users. So to a sense, the Metro Start Screen does NOT do all what the old Start Menu has to offer.
Oh, okay I see what you meant by blocking lol. Well, that's true, but that's more of a visual personal preference. For me it doesn't bother me because it's open for 2-3 seconds at most each time. And yeah the context menu could be a LOT better, but it's not a game breaker at all. You can still make shortcuts to all those locations you listed, but I agree that won't be intuitive to new users. I'm not saying the Metro interface is perfect, but it is very good in how customizable it actually is when you learn your way around it.

Also if you still want to run cmd without typing anything, right click the bottom left where the start button pops up and you'll get a very spiffy context menu: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6800062/w8startcontextmenu.png <-- That is actually WAAAAAY faster than if you were wanting to access most of those features in W7 without typing.

I remember during the early previews with W7 everyone was saying it was terrible and windows had doomed itself and it wasn't any better than vista.
 

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lehnerus2000

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#52
I remember during the early previews with W7 everyone was saying it was terrible and windows had doomed itself and it wasn't any better than vista.
I was on the other side of that debate.
I did have some gripes (like the "Read-only" attribute and the Windows Explorer scroll bug).

I basically used W7 as my main OS, from b7048 to today (I was using XP).
 

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whs

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#53
Originally Posted by Spaisekraft

I remember during the early previews with W7 everyone was saying it was terrible and windows had doomed itself and it wasn't any better than vista.
I don't know where you were at the time. I have lived thru the whole Win7 Beta and never heard such a statement. If I remember right, there was nothing but praise. Maybe there were a few guys that made derogative comments who only knew Win7 from hearsay - the same crowd like the one in the Mojave project.
 

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Spaisekraft

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#54
Originally Posted by Spaisekraft

I remember during the early previews with W7 everyone was saying it was terrible and windows had doomed itself and it wasn't any better than vista.
I don't know where you were at the time. I have lived thru the whole Win7 Beta and never heard such a statement. If I remember right, there was nothing but praise. Maybe there were a few guys that made derogative comments who only knew Win7 from hearsay - the same crowd like the one in the Mojave project.
lol well I remember having to vehemently defend W7 when the first preview came out.
 

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#55
Agree, everyone was happy of Windows 7 preview and beta.
 

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Spaisekraft

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#56
Agree, everyone was happy of Windows 7 preview and beta.
Just do a quick search on Windows 7 reviews, and read the comment sections of any website. Most reviews are good, but there are still a LOT of people who complained and hated W7 at first.

I look at it like Unity on Ubuntu. Everyone hated it when it first came out. People got so angry and said they'd only use gnome. Now everyone loves Unity. All because Canonical went and made a few tweaks to how things worked, but the overall functionality stayed the same.

I think a similar thing will happen with W8.
 

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lehnerus2000

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#57
We agree on this point

Originally Posted by Spaisekraft

I remember during the early previews with W7 everyone was saying it was terrible and windows had doomed itself and it wasn't any better than vista.
I don't know where you were at the time. I have lived thru the whole Win7 Beta and never heard such a statement. If I remember right, there was nothing but praise. Maybe there were a few guys that made derogative comments who only knew Win7 from hearsay - the same crowd like the one in the Mojave project.
lol well I remember having to vehemently defend W7 when the first preview came out.
I agree with you on this point.

I still see posts stating:
  • "W7 won't run on XP-level PCs".
  • "W7 uses more resources than Vista".

I initially ran it on a PC that was probably 2004 vintage (if not older).
It was slower at some tasks (than XP) but it was faster at others.

I'm in the "Ribbon-hater camp" myself. ;)

I look at it like Unity on Ubuntu. Everyone hated it when it first came out. People got so angry and said they'd only use gnome. Now everyone loves Unity. All because Canonical went and made a few tweaks to how things worked, but the overall functionality stayed the same.
I disagree with this though.
On the sites I go to, lots of people claim they have switched to Mint.

I think a similar thing will happen with W8.
It may well. ;)
Mac?
Linux?
 

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#58
I remember at EVERY Windows launch , people were bitching and complaining, even at Windows 7, but here we are at 90% of the market, and ready for more bitching and complaining.
Its funny how everybody always says they are going over to Mac and Linux and yet the percentages hardly ever change.
 

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legacy7955

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#59
I'm hoping that MS is smart enough to simply give the user the CHOICE of the new Metro skin, or with the click of the mouse a similar UI to W7. Like others have said Metro is NOT something that lends itself to a traditional business productivity environment. There is NO way around that complaint.
 

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Spaisekraft

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#60
I don't know where you were at the time. I have lived thru the whole Win7 Beta and never heard such a statement. If I remember right, there was nothing but praise. Maybe there were a few guys that made derogative comments who only knew Win7 from hearsay - the same crowd like the one in the Mojave project.
lol well I remember having to vehemently defend W7 when the first preview came out.
I agree with you on this point.I still see posts stating:
  • "W7 won't run on XP-level PCs".
  • "W7 uses more resources than Vista".
I initially ran it on a PC that was probably 2004 vintage (if not older).It was slower at some tasks (than XP) but it was faster at others.I'm in the "Ribbon-hater camp" myself. ;)
I look at it like Unity on Ubuntu. Everyone hated it when it first came out. People got so angry and said they'd only use gnome. Now everyone loves Unity. All because Canonical went and made a few tweaks to how things worked, but the overall functionality stayed the same.
I disagree with this though.On the sites I go to, lots of people claim they have switched to Mint.
I think a similar thing will happen with W8.
It may well. ;)Mac?Linux?
Personally, I love Windows 8 and I feel extremely productive using it. But that's just me. It's not for everyone.To be honest I would LOVE if Ubuntu or some other distro could replace Windows. Who knows, with the way mobile development is going and Ubuntu for Android, maybe it will some day.
 

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