System Image Backup & SecureBoot isn't configured correct

[Stecyk]

• Windows 8.1 64 bit pc
• 48 GB Ram
• Intel i7 – 3960X CPU
• BoxxTech Computer
• Drive C: SSD - 446 GB

If you require other configuration information, please let me know.

When I first got my new personal computer in January, I created a System Image using Microsoft’s utility. I typically use Acronis for my backups, but after major changes, I use both Microsoft and Acronis.

Now, I am attempting to complete a System Image Backup using Microsoft’s utility so that I can fix my SecureBoot concern, knowing that I have a safety net in place. Unfortunately, I am unable to complete a backup. BoxxTech suggests that I use Microsoft’s utility.

I begin with the File History in the Control Panel as shown below. Note, that I have plenty of room on my FreeAgent F Drive (standalone USB drive). Yet, Microsoft's utility believes otherwise.





Only the three items that shown to be selected are selected. In other words, there are no other drives or partitions off-screen that are selected.







Thinking that it might be a problem with my external USB hard drive, I look at using one of my internal drives, T.



I get the same error message as shown earlier.

Does anyone know of why I am unable to back-up my personal computer using Windows 8.1?

Kevin

 

[Stecyk]

I got the following response from BoxxTech Support:

It makes some sense now. The failure is the EFI partition. A volume 500mb or less requires 50mb of free space. This one has less than 30mb free. I’m trying to figure out if there’s a way to extend the partition which should allow success.

This stuff is beyond me, but I am in good hands. If someone has an answer, that would be great. When I get more information from BoxxTech, I will share my information.

 

[Saltgrass]

The problem seems to be with the Recovery Partition. The Windows 8.1 Recovery .wim file is larger and does not leave enough room in the 300 MB Recovery Partition to make the Shadow copy.

I suppose the answer is to get a third party imaging utility to create your system images, or backup all your files and use a third party partition manager to increase the size of the Recovery partition. I used Partition Wizard, but this type of operation is dangerous and you may loose the install.

 

[Stecyk]

The problem seems to be with the Recovery Partition. The Windows 8.1 Recovery .wim file is larger and does not leave enough room in the 300 MB Recovery Partition to make the Shadow copy.

Yes, a bit of surprise.

I suppose the answer is to get a third party imaging utility to create your system images, or backup all your files and use a third party partition manager to increase the size of the Recovery partition. I used Partition Wizard, but this type of operation is dangerous and you may loose the install.

I have Acronis, though I don't know if it will suffer the same problems. Regardless, I want change my partitions so that this problem is addressed. From reading some of the information on Partition Magic, I get the impression that one should be able to shift the "curtain"--that is, shrink one partition and enlarge another--dynamically. By dynamically, I mean that you should be able to make changes without having to remove or delete anything first. However, one should have a backup in place in case something goes wrong.

I am working with Boxx on my PC. I am likely to follow its lead on how to resolve my problem. However, I will bring this information to its attention.

I have a quick question regarding its Move/Resize Partition. From reading the documentation, it seems that you grab borders or sliders to adjust the partition size. Are you able to move precise amounts using borders or sliders?

I look forward to your response.

 

[Saltgrass]

I used Partition Wizard, not Partition Magic. But yes, you should be able to use the arrow keys for small adjustments. Partition Wizard has a Data Protection Enhancement option that seems to limit what you can do. If necessary, you might try turning it off, if you have such a thing in your software since it allows for smaller adjustments. It might be safer not turning it off, but again, up to you.

There is another thread that was posted in the last 24 hours where someone goes through the process, but they did things I don't believe necessary.

What I did was move or shrink the OS partition, then delete the MSR partition. What you do next may depend on the software you are using, but in Partition Wizard, I used the Extend Partition option on the Recovery Partition and took some space from the unallocated space created in the earlier steps. This effectively moved the EFI partition over to allow for the increase of size. When all steps were completed, I still had the ~128 MB of unallocated space for the MSR partition.

Since Partition Wizard does not know how to create an MSR partition, I booted back into Recovery Environment and used Diskpart to create the MSR Partition. Make sure the 128 MB space is the only unallocated space, or it will be placed in the larger location. [DEL]You may be able to do this using Diskpart from within Windows, but I did not try.[/DEL]You can create the MSR partition using Diskpart after booting back into Windows.

I gave my partition an additional 200 MB, but it may only need 50 MB...up to you. I also do my steps one at a time by applying after each change, since doing several at once may end up causing problems.

But as you seem to know, this process can be dangerous......!

 

[Stecyk]

I used Partition Wizard, not Partition Magic.

I was thinking Wizard but wrote Magic. My apologies for the confusion. At least my link referenced the Wizard page.

I am in unfamiliar territory, so I am asking newbie questions. Given that I need to increase my recovery partition from 300 mb to, say, 500 mb, could I reduce my C (system) partition by 200 mb and then increase my recovery partition by 200 mb? Would that be it?

In your post, you deleted and put back stuff. I am hoping that I don't have to delete anything.

As a tangential set of questions, when partitions are reallocated, does the software move the bytes and bits on a disk to make everything contiguous? Or does it just keep track of which parts (sectors?) are allocated to which partitions? And, does it make any difference if it is an SSD drive?

 

[Saltgrass]

I did the procedure the way I explained. Exactly how a specific third party software works will depend on what it is. But I believe I explained the procedure correctly. I certainly understand any hesitation and second guessing about the process, I would be a little concerned if it was me.

Below is the Disk Management picture of my install done using the prescribed procedure. I have a dual install of Windows 7 and Windows 8, both on an SSD. So, as you can see, Windows 8 is on the Disk 1 with the partitions I described. If you are not sure, do not do this.

 

[phrozen ghost]

Sounds like a stupid question but it aint really.... When you installed Win 8 did you install using a UEFI driver... Did it say it was in UEFI mode. Like on my system which is completely different when i do a custom boot from cd it shows me the dvd drive is a EFI bootable...

The other thing is is did you enable secure boot in the security settings?

 

[Stecyk]

I did the procedure the way I explained. Exactly how a specific third party software works will depend on what it is. But I believe I explained the procedure correctly. I certainly understand any hesitation and second guessing about the process, I would be a little concerned if it was me.

Thank you for your help thus far. I am just trying to come up to speed. I am working with my computer manufacturer on this issue. So I am hoping that he will hold my hand as I walk through the process. If I can learn more on my own, so much the better.

 

[Stecyk]

Sounds like a stupid question but it aint really.... When you installed Win 8 did you install using a UEFI driver... Did it say it was in UEFI mode. Like on my system which is completely different when i do a custom boot from cd it shows me the dvd drive is a EFI bootable...

The other thing is is did you enable secure boot in the security settings?

Let me use numbered responses to answer your questions:

1. My personal computer is reasonably new, purchased in January. It came with Windows 8 already loaded. I believe it does use UEFI. I see that notice when I boot up.
2. SecureBoot is what caused me to look into this issue. When I upgraded from Win 8 to 8.1, I got a notice that SecureBoot isn't configured correctly. When I looked on the web, the advice was to speak with the computer manufacturer. When I spoke to my manufacturer, he wanted me to complete a backup first. And that when I discovered this problem with insufficient space.

 

[Saltgrass]

[DEL]I found out some more info after testing. Using a Recovery partition larger than 350 MB may result in a problem since the Imaging utility seems to be limited to a 350 MB recovery partition. On my system using 500 MB, when I re-imaged, the 500 MB partition was restored, but a new 350 MB partition was created and used for the Recovery scenario.[/DEL]Disregard, the small partition must have been on the drive prior and I did not notice it. Subsequent tests show larger partitions (>350 MB) will work.

It also seems the Winre.wim file is not a set size. Not sure exactly what is changing its size, but when you talk to your folks, ask them if you could replace the Winre.wim file with a smaller version. I am currently seeing those files anywhere from 200 MB to 280 MB, depending on the install.

Maybe someone in the forum knows why the size changes...

 

[Stecyk]

It also seems the Winre.wim file is not a set size. Not sure exactly what is changing its size, but when you talk to your folks, ask them if you could replace the Winre.wim file with a smaller version. I am currently seeing those files anywhere from 200 MB to 280 MB, depending on the install.

Thank you for your comments. I am going to be away for most of today and all of tomorrow. So I expect that the computer manufacturer and I will tackle my problem some time next week.

 

[Stecyk]

I have come to the conclusion that I am going to do a reinstall, probably in January. Neither the computer manufacturer technician had much confidence in finding an easy solution, other than starting fresh.

I want to proceed directly to Windows 8.1, skipping over Windows 8, when I do the reinstall. I haven't discussed starting with Windows 8.1 with the computer technician. I am assuming that its fine. Rather than starting with the Windows 8 CD, I will start with a Windows 8.1 CD.

Here are some key threads that I have found on that internet that seem to allow Windows 8 users to create a bootable Windows 8.1 disk.

1. http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/windows-81-tip-download-windows-81-iso-windows-8-product-key (Download Win 8.1 with Win 8 key)
2. Installing Windows 8.1 (or 8) without a product key · Medo's Home Page (Getting Win 8.1 to run with Win 8 key)
3. Questions about adding a "ei.cfg" file to Windows 8 ISOs (Configure ei.cfg file)

As far as I can tell, this is a legitimate process and not a hack. Moreover, I have an OEM installed Windows 8 version on my pc. So I will likely need to tell the ei.cfg file that it is an OEM install. I will get more assistance from the computer manufacturer when it comes to completing the reinstall.

If anyone has words of guidance, I would appreciate reading your comments.

 

[Saltgrass]

I have moved the partitions on several installs so far and now have a 500 MB recovery partition. So, if you are going to reinstall anyway, you could try.

I just did a clean install the other day using a Full Retail DVD, which should be the same thing as the .iso you are referring to. I used the common key to boot 8.1, then removed all the partitions on the drive and created a new one for the install. Because there were no longer any prior files, the install went as normal and created the same 300 MB Recovery partition, but the Winre.wim file was smaller and did not cause problems.

As far as keeping any warranty, that certainly has to be up to you and your manufacturer. When you explained the problem, did they understand the situation? If not, tell them the file is increasing in size during the install if prior drivers and perhaps other types of files are present at the time of the install. A clean install results in a smaller and workable file.

 

[Stecyk]

As far as keeping any warranty, that certainly has to be up to you and your manufacturer. When you explained the problem, did they understand the situation? If not, tell them the file is increasing in size during the install if prior drivers and perhaps other types of files are present at the time of the install. A clean install results in a smaller and workable file.

You have two questions in here. Let's deal with the question of did they understand the problem. Yes, they understood my exact problem. The cold, hard, unfortunate reality is that not all upgrades proceed smoothly. As to why I was affected, they don't know. He said I could call Microsoft, but it's solution would be the same, "start fresh." I am free to try whatever I want to try, but the safest and surest route is the reinstall.

As far as warranty is concerned, none of what I am doing will affect the warranty. It isn't as though I am modifying the motherboard or something similar. I am simply starting over. I haven't discussed the proceeding directly to Windows 8.1 rather than reinstalling 8 and then upgrading to 8.1. But that should have no effect.

Let's say in two years, Windows 9 is released. I could go and purchase Windows 9 and install it. That surely wouldn't void the warranty. However, if I had problems with Windows 9, that would be my issue and not theirs.

I just did a clean install the other day using a Full Retail DVD, which should be the same thing as the .iso you are referring to. I used the common key to boot 8.1, then removed all the partitions on the drive and created a new one for the install. Because there were no longer any prior files, the install went as normal and created the same 300 MB Recovery partition, but the Winre.wim file was smaller and did not cause problems.

Putting your steps into my own words, it seems as though you used your Windows 8.1 disk to start the process, completely reformat the drive, wiping away the prior partitions, and then let Windows 8.1 create its own new partitions. Is that correct?

 

[Saltgrass]

Putting your steps into my own words, it seems as though you used your Windows 8.1 disk to start the process, completely reformat the drive, wiping away the prior partitions, and then let Windows 8.1 create its own new partitions. Is that correct?

Yes, I booted to my 8.1 DVD and removed(deleted) the prior partitions (Small Recovery, EFI, OS) on the partitions dialog and made a new one for the install and Windows created the additional partitions it needs in that space. OEM systems can have partitions you may not want to remove, so be careful. If you were to have some type of Special Tools partition, removing it might cause problems if something goes wrong. There will be no rolling back from this type of procedure.

This is done during the install process if you have an Upgrade version of Windows 8. If you wipe the system first and then install, the Windows 8 Upgrade key will not work to activate, since the prior OS would be gone.

Again, I used the General License key which is available on this site, and then the Windows 8 key to activate later.

If anyone feels I am explaining the process incorrectly, hopefully they will bring it to our attention.

Please ask if you have questions.

 

[Stecyk]

Thank you Saltgrass for your comments. When I spoke with the technician, we discussed that I could purchase from Microsoft a Windows 8.1 replacement CD/DVD. Although I have Windows 8, Microsoft, apparently, allows users to purchase a replacement CD/DVD with the latest edition. That is, Windows 8 users can obtain a Windows 8.1 disk.

I called Microsoft and spoke to several departments. After explaining my situation in great detail, the first person that I spoke to suggested that I go to Wal-Mart and purchase a new version of Windows 8.1.

A few transfers later, I learned that Windows 8.1 CD/DVD are not available yet, but should be available on November 15th and later. So I will call back then and order the CD/DVD for January's installation.

I have never proceeded down this path before. Are there any potential pitfalls that you can see in my approach thus far?

 

[Saltgrass]

When I do something like this, I like to make sure I am covered in case of problems. Which means backup all your personal files, have a way to reinstall Windows 8 if something goes wrong, so you can try again.

If you are on an OEM system, do you have access to the actual install key, and is it a Upgrade key or a Retail key. That will make a difference how you install the new OS.

I keep a very minimal Windows 8 system for testing so I can mess with it when I want. If it breaks, I just reimage. If you are dealing with your primary system and have a lot of data that is important, you may have additional considerations, plus the relationship you have with your vendor.

 

[Stecyk]

When I do something like this, I like to make sure I am covered in case of problems. Which means backup all your personal files, have a way to reinstall Windows 8 if something goes wrong, so you can try again.

All personal files are on separate drives. C drive is operating system and software. My two other drives hold my data files.

If you are on an OEM system, do you have access to the actual install key, and is it a Upgrade key or a Retail key. That will make a difference how you install the new OS.

Yes, I had to enter the key when I first booted up the pc back in January. This key is from the OEM on an original Windows 8 pc. And, I have a Windows 8 CD/DVD from the OEM in a flimsy Windows 8 cardboard envelope. It isn't in a traditional jewel cases from days of old.

I keep a very minimal Windows 8 system for testing so I can mess with it when I want. If it breaks, I just reimage. If you are dealing with your primary system and have a lot of data that is important, you may have additional considerations, plus the relationship you have with your vendor.

I am supposing (read: hoping) that when I put a new Windows 8.1 DVD from Microsoft, I can go ahead and create a fresh install on my C drive, an SSD drive. And this fresh install will recognize and accept my two physical hard drives. That is, I won't have any problems with Windows 8.1 failing to recognize or accept the other drives because of security stuff. Somehow, during the entire process, Windows will know that it is installed over an existing version and that all existing data on separate drives will be fine.

 

[Saltgrass]

Do you have any Windows default folders on separate drives? I have seen some folks that have problems updating because they have moved there user profiles and possibly other things to a separate drive. But I have no experience and cannot verify.

You should be able to disconnect the other drives and plug them back in later. It is always advisable, if you can, to disconnect other drives when doing an install. The extra drives should be seen fine, at least I have not seen you indicate anything that would make me think otherwise.

If you have an OEM key, you may be able to install to a clean drive, I am not sure. If you had a spare drive laying around, you could test.