SSD Technical ?

[TechnoMage]

I've been using SSD's now for a while, and when I got my first one, I was told to never Defrag an SSD.
Ok, I can deal with that, but if the files on a spinner (old style, mechanical hard drive) can get fragmented, why wouldn't the files on an SSD get fragmented too? And wouldn't that downgrade performance after a while?

I've heard about "Trim" on an SSD, but I don't really understand it.

Back when I was still running a Spinner on my main PC, I used to perform the "Perfect Defrag" by backing up the drive and then doing a Restore, so all the files were re-written to the drive in perfect order, with NO spaces between files and NO Fragmentation. Would that work OK on an SSD?

Is there an SSD Expert in the house?

TM

 

[strollin]

On an SSD, any location can be accessed instantly since there is no need to rotate the disk and position the head in order to access a particular location so fragmentation is a moot point.

The bigger concern is that each memory cell on the SSD has a finite number of read/write cycles before it dies. When reading, writing, deleting data from the memory cells, the same cells tend to be used more often than others which causes them to fail sooner. TRIM purposely forces data to be spread over the entirety of the SSD so the same cells aren't used over and over as much. This is referred to as "wear leveling".

 

[Bree]

Wear levelling and TRIM are not the same thing. But they do work together. Wear Levelling spreads the writes around the SSD to even out the wear on the cells. By preference it will write to pages that are known not to contain any valid data. But deleting a file does not necessarily let the SSD's controller know that a page no longer holds valid data, With a limited number of known empty pages the wear levelling is not working as efficiently as it could.

When writing some more data to a page that already holds some data the whole page is read, the data added, then it is re-written. TRIM is the operation that tell the SSD that data in that page no longer need to be preserved, reducing the amount of writes needed. More here:

The TRIM command enables an operating system to notify the SSD of pages which no longer contain valid data. For a file deletion operation, the operating system will mark the file's sectors as free for new data, then send a TRIM command to the SSD. After trimming, the SSD will not preserve any contents of the block when writing new data to a page of flash memory, resulting in less write amplification (fewer writes), higher write throughput (no need for a read-erase-modify sequence), thus increasing drive life.

Trim (computing) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TechnoMage]

Thanks guys! That's the kind of input I needed.
There should be a book, "SSD's for Dummies". Or maybe, "Care and feeding of your SSD".

How things have changed, since my very first HD, a Seagate MFM, 20 MB drive. I made the leap from MFM directly to IDE, bypassing the RLL drives and SCSI drives.

Thanks again guys!
TM

 

[strollin]

My first HDD was a Seagate ST-225 20MB MFM drive that I used with an RLL controller that allowed me to format it as a 30MB drive.

 

[TechnoMage]

That was my first drive too! Wow! Small world! lol
I just gathered parts from wherever I could, and threw together my first PC.
It actually had a real IBM XT Motherboard.

I didn't know that 255 could run with an RLL controller though, or I might have tried that.
My second, third and fourth HD's were Seagate ST4038, full height 30 md MFM drives. Those were great drives.....for DOS.
And, how about those full height 5.25" Floppy Drives? I was all set up to do RE-Alignments on those.
I actually got started re-aligning Commodore 1541 disk drives, and that just migrated into the IBM drives.
All that was a long, long, ways from the SSD drives of today. But progress moves on.

 

[strollin]

Technically, Seagate didn't support the ST-225 for RLL. The ST-238 was the same drive but supported RLL. I bought the ST-225 and RLL controller from a small shop and used it withut issue for about 10 months before the drive died. It had a 1 year warranty so I brought it back. The shop sent it to Seagate and Seagate denied the warranty claim since it had been formatted as RLL. The shop owner told me I was out of luck until I reminded him that that he sold the combination of RLL controller and ST-225 to me. At that point, he reached into the glass case and gave me a brand new ST-238 drive.

My first build was a clone of the IBM XT. It used a Taiwanese XT motherboard but I got hold of the BIOS from a genuine IBM XT so my clone was 100% compatible with the IBM XT, right down to having ROM BASIC! One big difference was that my clone clocked the CPU at 8Mhz instead of 4.77Mhz the IBM did. I also used an NEC V-20 cpu which was instruction compatible with the 8088 but was about 20% faster.

 

[TechnoMage]

Likewise, I used and loved the V-20 chip. Nice upgrade!

I also got into the ERSO Bios chip, and did a little reprogramming, to speed it up.
I burned the eProms using my Commodore 64 and a PROM programmer. Oh, those were the days!

We did a lot of stuff, back then, that we can't do today. Oh, the sorrow! It was so much fun.
Nowadays I do my email, pay a few bills, and watch a forum or two, and that's about it. I don't even write batch files any more.
Well, at 79, wadda ya expect?
TM

 

[strollin]

Yeah having a PROM burner allowed one to make changes to the machine you normally wouldn't be able to. Like your BIOS speedup or my BIOS duplication. I had my burner for a good many years but finally sold it about 5 years ago.

These days I tinker with my Raspberry Pi SBCs and my 3D printer to "keep busy" at age 69. Guess we're just a couple of old goats hanging out here.

 

[TechnoMage]

Actually, I monitor/work two car forums, and about six computer forums, so that keeps me busy, when I'm not maintaining my home and acreage. So when do I sleep? Well usually sometime between midnight and six AM, if I'm lucky. Being 79 does make one slow down a little. And being broke all the time, doesn't help either. Thank you, JB.
So I get here when I can, but I really don't spend a lot of time here. Since I do run Windows 8.1 on all 12 of my computers, this is probably my favorite forum.
With a few exceptions, I'm pretty much an "appliance operator" these days.
I do spend some time watching car shows, on the "Motor Trend" channel. Now watching "Overhaulin'".

 

[strollin]

I hang out on 8 computer forums and a bunch of sub-reddits on reddit. When I retired, I sold my big house and acreage so I wouldn't have to spend my time maintaining that stuff. I'm not sure who that JB is that made you broke, Jeb Bush? My wife and I are comfortable, not rich, but certainly not struggling.

I only have 5 computers that I regularly use (have 4 more but they pretty much just sit around and collect dust). I run a mixture of mostly Win 10 with a couple of Win 11 installs on my computers. I haven't run 8.1 on any of them for years, I liked it back then but moved on.

I spend time daily adding new content to my media server where I currently have over 16,000 movies plus a bunch of TV shows. At night I try to actually watch a few of those movies.

 

[TechnoMage]

What JB do you know of, who has made a whole bunch of people broke? NO, definitely not Jeb Bush. He's ancient history.

I'm really glad that you're OK, because I'm certainly not. I'm sittin' at home saving gas and money, so I can make it to my next Dr's appointment.
I'm even considering getting rid of my car, and getting me an Electric Bike.

 

[strollin]

Sorry to hear you may have to make some changes to your lifestyle to get by. The only person in the world that I know of that has been personally responsible for a whole bunch of people going broke is Vladimir Putin, but his initials aren't JB.

 

[TechnoMage]

Are you kidding, or are you just deliberately ignoring the real problem? Putin is not the cause of the problem.
Joe Biden (JB) is!!! I have one thing working in my favor....I live in Florida. It's a 'Right to work' state, with NO state income tax, and some of the lowest gas prices in the USA.
Back on Topic:
I've still not received my new 500 GB Crucial SSD. Maybe UPS is having trouble fueling their trucks.

 

[strollin]

I'm not ignoring the problem, you are just confused! The economic sanctions put on Russia due to Putin's war IS the problem!

I'm glad you are happy living in Florida. I've been there for a visit, wouldn't want to live there.

 

[TechnoMage]

Yeah, the NO StateTAX and lower gas prices is a real downer.
But we still have over 1500 families a week moving here. WE can't build new homes fast enough.
Now, can we get back on topic?

I just got a new 500GB SSD, direct from Crucial/Micron. I should be able to get it cloned and in to my PC this weekend. With all the Dr's apps and other things that's been going on around here this week, it's been a real nightmare.
Next week, with my SS pay day and a VA lab, will be a little better.

 

[TechnoMage]

The new 500GB SSD is cloned, installed and working perfectly. I'm hoping for an improvement in drive performance, but at least I've got more space.

Happy Father's Day!

 

[TechnoMage]

Years of experience, has led me to make Crucial/Micron my #1 supplier of SSD drives and ram memory.
When I ordered my new Crucial 500 GB SSD, they included, for FREE, a little adapter to allow me to connect a SATA SSD drive to a USB port.
I'm sure I'm going to find that little adapter very useful. I've checked it out, and it works GREAT.

This is my old SSD, and I'll be using it for backups and storage.

Cheers Mates!
TM

 

[strollin]

Yeah those USB to SATA adapters are pretty handy, cool that Crucial included one with your drive. They can be had on Amazon for about $6.

Personally, I only buy from Crucial when I'm in a hurry or too lazy to shop around, I can get better deals elsewhere.

 

[SCANNERMAN]

lol I'm only in my 60's but reading this thread is a probably a good indication where I'm headed. Perhaps one day I'll be able to boast that I only have 5 PCs too. Every time I think I'm trimming down another one seems to mysteriously wind up in my possession. I've been taking to refurbishing old desk tops and giving them to children who don't have a PC. They're calling me the computer grandpa now. I've been called worse things.

Thanks for the entertaining read.


OH.. Right.. SSDs... TRIM is definitely a good idea. I only use it about once a year but my SSDs have lasted well past most of the mechanical drives I've owned (except the real old ones that refuse to die because there was a time mechanical drives were built to last). Anyone know how often TRIM should be used? I never really gave it a thought.