Petition to Microsoft addressing 8

[severedsolo]

We live in times where a tablet form factor is packing an i7 mobile processor, 8 gigs of RAM, and a SSD drive that would give many desktops a run for their money and then some.

How many people are going to pay a grand for a i7 tablet? I do agree that the desktop is slowly dying, and is going to become a gaming platform only (at least until they finally manage to kill PC gaming, which is the way the industry is pushing... but thats a debate for another time).

Its well known that GENERALLY mobile platforms do not game, and do not handle heat well. I can't imagine anything worse than sticking an i7 in a tablet and gaming on it.... and gamers are the sort of people who would spend that money on that tablet, and these are the people that would go out and buy (or more likely build!) a desktop for that. How do I know? I am that user.

As for touch being the future, again I disagree, on a gaming platform, the keyboard and mouse aren't going anywhere. You just can't get the same level of control with touch, plus reaching for my desktop (or even laptop!) screen every couple of minutes is going to get my arms tired very quickly.

Yeah, because you're a Desktop user. That's where the main complaints are coming from.

So that means we don't get a say? Because we are in the minority, does our opinion not count?

Its not like MS are saying "Hey here is our new OS for touch systems, but don't worry it still works just as well for desktop users." Well actually, that is what they are saying, but patently it isn't true.

 

[speedy1979]

There are only three ways to be successful in business:
1. Ask your customers what they want and provide for those wants/needs.
2. Anticipate what your customers want and provide for those wants/needs.
3. Insure that your customers have no one else to turn to for their wants/needs.

Microsoft seems to failing at #2 (imho) and #3 is both immoral, illegal and unsustainable. Therefore Microsofts best bet is #1.

 

[BillWindows]

there are only three ways to be successful in business:
1. Ask your customers what they want and provide for those wants/needs.
2. Anticipate what your customers want and provide for those wants/needs.
3. Insure that your customers have no one else to turn to for their wants/needs.

Microsoft seems to failing at #2 (imho) and #3 is both immoral, illegal and unsustainable. Therefore microsofts best bet is #1.

Apple.

 

[FuturDreamz]

We live in times where a tablet form factor is packing an i7 mobile processor, 8 gigs of RAM, and a SSD drive that would give many desktops a run for their money and then some.

No matter what is in a laptop/tablet, I can cram more of it into a desktop.

More:

• RAM.
• HDDs.
• SSDs.
• Graphics cards.
• NICs.

How many laptops/tablets can take server boards?

 

[speedy1979]

We live in times where a tablet form factor is packing an i7 mobile processor, 8 gigs of RAM, and a SSD drive that would give many desktops a run for their money and then some.

No matter what is in a laptop/tablet, I can cram more of it into a desktop.

More:

• RAM.
• HDDs.
• SSDs.
• Graphics cards.
• NICs.

How many laptops/tablets can take server boards?

Awesome! Now that is true mobile computing.

 

[BillWindows]

Who said PC's were going the way of the Dinosaur, that looks like a great rig for a bicycle.

 

[lehnerus2000]

Minority?

Yeah, because you're a Desktop user. That's where the main complaints are coming from. Do you really think a college student or a family really need more RAM, HDDs, SSDs, Graphics cards, and NICs or server boards? Really? Every person I know that has a laptop has 4 gigs of RAM and a 2GHz dual core processor and they're fine, some even use PhotoShop on that.

That's fine if all you ever do is type up the occasional Word doc and login to Facebook.

You can use Photoshop on XP machines too.
The spectacular/tricky filters like lots of RAM and CPU power.
If you don't mind waiting for the transformations to execute, you don't need any power.

It's the same thing that people say about SSDs; once you've tried the speed you can't live with HDDs.

Lots of people need more RAM and storage.
I've got 4.5 TB installed in my PC and it's not enough.
I haven't seen any laptops with 4.5 TB (yet).

So that means we don't get a say? Because we are in the minority, does our opinion not count?

Minority compared to what? Smart phones?
I have no doubt that Windows is installed in more desktops, than any other form factor.

And people say that being behind a monitor all day makes you unfit.

 

[Coke Robot]

We live in times where a tablet form factor is packing an i7 mobile processor, 8 gigs of RAM, and a SSD drive that would give many desktops a run for their money and then some.

How many people are going to pay a grand for a i7 tablet? I do agree that the desktop is slowly dying, and is going to become a gaming platform only (at least until they finally manage to kill PC gaming, which is the way the industry is pushing... but thats a debate for another time).

Its well known that GENERALLY mobile platforms do not game, and do not handle heat well. I can't imagine anything worse than sticking an i7 in a tablet and gaming on it.... and gamers are the sort of people who would spend that money on that tablet, and these are the people that would go out and buy (or more likely build!) a desktop for that. How do I know? I am that user.

As for touch being the future, again I disagree, on a gaming platform, the keyboard and mouse aren't going anywhere. You just can't get the same level of control with touch, plus reaching for my desktop (or even laptop!) screen every couple of minutes is going to get my arms tired very quickly.

Yeah, because you're a Desktop user. That's where the main complaints are coming from.

So that means we don't get a say? Because we are in the minority, does our opinion not count?

Its not like MS are saying "Hey here is our new OS for touch systems, but don't worry it still works just as well for desktop users." Well actually, that is what they are saying, but patently it isn't true.

Well, apple users pay a good grand for an i7 crapbook, but that's the demographic here. Right now, they're expensive, as is any high end computing product. Realistically, not many average users need that horsepower and would do fantastic on an i3 processor. With Windows 8, and the mobile devices that will come out, that could easily change. Even then, one could design a Windows Slate to have good ventilation without a ton of bulk, but then again; if you're gaming you probably want a keyboard and a mouse.

On a gaming system, a touch screen obviously doesn't work, the same goes with console gaming. The only way a console system would have touch is if the controller itself was touch, but gesture is what is new with that. I believe touch input works great on mobile systems and obviously touch screens. Gesture will work great on everything else.

I said that about Desktop users because honestly, that's where a lot of complaints are coming from. Some say Windows 8 is crap on laptops and some think it would be best for the laptop but crap for the desktop. Why? It works totally fine. The only reason why there are issues with Desktop users, I believe, is that Windows 8 doesn't give the Desktop interface as much attention as before and is kind of an afterthought. I find it silly that one would complain that your screen displays a different interface than the Desktop when one can easily click on the Desktop tile or a Desktop program. To me, that's where I think some people lose the concept of Windows 8 and the Start Screen, it's not a start menu full screen, it's that and much more.

 

[Greygoose]

I too voted yes even though I quite like w8. I would hate to think that this was an end product and assume there is a lot of work going on at Microsoft to refine it. It does seem to be a policy of Microsoft to release before it is bug free and let the users such as yourselves sort it out for them.

 

[GMan]

It does seem to be a policy of Microsoft to release before it is bug free and let the users such as yourselves sort it out for them.

This is untrue and an internet myth. Their Windows 7 beta was extremely reliable and stable and I can say the same of Windows 8.

The reason these unfounded rumors propagate I think, is because people run into issues that they don't understand and it is easiest for the ego to blame it on something else.

Say what you will say about MS, but they never set you up to fail.

 

[jmarsh07]

Just wanted to say, I tried, but I just couldn't wrap myself around Windows 8 like I did with 7. The start page is just plain UGLY!!!, apps kept dissappearing, and I found myself almost exclusively using the desktop. So, I have (with a little sadness) changed back to Windows 7 and I think I will be staying with it for at least the near future.
I think that Microsoft should make 2 OS's. Metro style for touch-screens and tablets, and desktop style for home and office use. I think that the few real improvements could have probably just been incorporated into a win7 service pack instead of a brand new OS.

 

[Coke Robot]

Yeah, because you're a Desktop user. That's where the main complaints are coming from. Do you really think a college student or a family really need more RAM, HDDs, SSDs, Graphics cards, and NICs or server boards? Really? Every person I know that has a laptop has 4 gigs of RAM and a 2GHz dual core processor and they're fine, some even use PhotoShop on that.

That's fine if all you ever do is type up the occasional Word doc and login to Facebook.

You can use Photoshop on XP machines too.
The spectacular/tricky filters like lots of RAM and CPU power.
If you don't mind waiting for the transformations to execute, you don't need any power.

It's the same thing that people say about SSDs; once you've tried the speed you can't live with HDDs.

Lots of people need more RAM and storage.
I've got 4.5 TB installed in my PC and it's not enough.
I haven't seen any laptops with 4.5 TB (yet).

So that means we don't get a say? Because we are in the minority, does our opinion not count?

Minority compared to what? Smart phones?
I have no doubt that Windows is installed in more desktops, than any other form factor.

And people say that being behind a monitor all day makes you unfit.

This is true about what you say about desktops, but seriously, honestly, do you think the typical person really cares for that? I know more people concerned with music than video since they haven't discovered digital media in full. Many people don't PhotoShop, and are fine with what they have. Heck, even look at the sales of desktops, they're stagnant. More people are preferring mobile over not. That's what they like and that's what being innovated a lot more than desktops. A tower today appears basically the same as one 10 years ago. A laptop today or even a tablet today looks not like one 10 years ago. That's what killing desktops in my eyes: the genuine lack of true innovation. Sure, things are smaller and faster, but that's it. Until Windows 8, no one even thought of actually using gesture as an input or even touch.

Times are changing. People are choosing mobile options more than ever. Yes, here on this forum, we may like to bash on those options because WE, we are desktop form factor users because we know more about computer technology than the typical person. We like to dig around our box and optimize it for the best performance as it can go. Most people settle with what they have because their needs are different. We have terabytes of video and music and tell everyone we know to get a SSD or more RAM because they help our needs, but most people could live without the plethora of RAM and the super fast speed.

But even then, there will be the Windows Slate options that have a lot of RAM and a large SSD and a fast processor because some poeple will want the flexibility of having desktop-like power, the efficiency of a laptop, having a natural input of touch, and the convenience of choosing how to use their device. That in a nutshell is what I think Windows 8 is about, flexibility in changing times.

 

[lehnerus2000]

Market Saturation

Say what you will say about MS, but they never set you up to fail.

How about releasing on OS with the firewall turned off?

Heck, even look at the sales of desktops, they're stagnant.

Ever heard of market saturation?

Most people who want a desktop already have one.
Most desktops last longer than 6 months.

The mobile phone market is saturated too.
They have a high turnover, because Apple says, "iPhone X is "the new black". You must be a loser if you are using anything else."

The only unsaturated market is Tablets.

A tower today appears basically the same as one 10 years ago. A laptop today or even a tablet today looks not like one 10 years ago. That's what killing desktops in my eyes: the genuine lack of true innovation. Sure, things are smaller and faster, but that's it.

Cars are still boxes with wheels.
We'd better get rid of them.

Towers are unchanged, because they actually work.

If someone slapped a mirror ball on a tower, you'd rush out and buy it then?

Until Windows 8, no one even thought of actually using gesture as an input or even touch.

You've obviously never seen a HP All-in-one Touch PC with Windows 7 (not that I'd buy one, especially at the prices they want).

We have terabytes of video and music and tell everyone we know to get a SSD or more RAM because they help our needs, but most people could live without the plethora of RAM and the super fast speed.

Fair enough, if all you ever do is read email, use OneNote and/or Word, Twit and listen to some music.

But even then, there will be the Windows Slate options that have a lot of RAM and a large SSD and a fast processor because some poeple will want the flexibility of having desktop-like power, the efficiency of a laptop, having a natural input of touch, and the convenience of choosing how to use their device. That in a nutshell is what I think Windows 8 is about, flexibility in changing times.

They won't have desktop-type power.

My friend spent $3K on a laptop, so that he could spend 30 minutes/day (possibly) editing video on the bus.
It's more likely that he is just reading emails.
He can't use its full power without being plugged into the mains (it throttles itself down to save the battery).

He could have got a $2K monster desktop and monitor and a $1K laptop.
I have no doubt that combination would outperform his laptop.

I could have built 3 desktop systems, each much more powerful than my current set up, for that sort of money.
I can't even conceive of how powerful a $3K desktop PC would be. :shock:

BTW, I've never said that W8 isn't suitable for Phone and Tablet users.

 

[GMan]

Say what you will say about MS, but they never set you up to fail.

How about releasing on OS with the firewall turned off?

When was this?

 

[lehnerus2000]

The original XP release (and SP1)

Say what you will say about MS, but they never set you up to fail.

How about releasing on OS with the firewall turned off?

When was this?

Surely you've read claims stating that if you connect Windows to the Internet, it will be riddled with Worms within minutes?
That reference is actually about XP.

Microsoft’s record on security is far from perfect. In Windows XP, for example, it introduced an effective firewall and then chose to leave it turned off by default. That mistake was corrected in XP Service Pack 2.

ZDNet
Windows malware: are you safer today than you were 10 years ago? | ZDNet

Note:
They didn't fix it in XP SP1!

Also, Windows still has "Hide extensions for known files types" selected by default, despite all the problems that caused.

 

[speedy1979]

I agree with Gman windows 7 was very stable while in beta. Infact it was better than Vista with service pack 1 imho.

 

[GMan]

How about releasing on OS with the firewall turned off?

When was this?

Surely you've read claims stating that if you connect Windows to the Internet, it will be riddled with Worms within minutes?
That reference is actually about XP.

XP didn't even come with a firewall so a non-existing one can not even possibly be turned off. That fact did not set up anyone to fail, despite your attempt to pick something out here. Operating systems are intended as a working link between hardware and the end user. The only reason Microsoft started including a firewall at all with XP SP2 and subsequent releases is because the general population did not know any better on their own and NAT routers were not extremely popular yet like today. Most connected their nics straight to the broadband modem, without the use of NAT.

So to Microsoft's credit, which you would rather put them down for and also use it as a fault in something I've said, they did start including a firewall.

And besides all this at all, my response about Microsoft not setting anyone up to fail was about bugs or not bugs. I have no idea how a non-existent firewall came into the conversation here.

 

[lehnerus2000]

Marketing Decision

XP didn't even come with a firewall so a non-existing one can not even possibly be turned off. That fact did not set up anyone to fail, despite your attempt to pick something out here. Operating systems are intended as a working link between hardware and the end user. The only reason Microsoft started including a firewall at all with XP SP2 and subsequent releases is because the general population did not know any better on their own and NAT routers were not extremely popular yet like today.
...
And besides all this at all, my response about Microsoft not setting anyone up to fail was about bugs or not bugs. I have no idea how a non-existent firewall came into the conversation here.

Did you even read the link?

Microsoft’s record on security is far from perfect. In Windows XP, for example, it introduced an effective firewall and then chose to leave it turned off by default. That mistake was corrected in XP Service Pack 2.

ZDNet
Windows malware: are you safer today than you were 10 years ago? | ZDNet

Maybe you don't like Ed Bott.

Here's another link:

Windows XP introduced several new features to the Windows line, including:
...
New networking features including Windows Firewall, Internet Connection Sharing integration with UPnP, NAT traversal APIs, Quality of Service features, IPv6 and Teredo tunneling, Background Intelligent Transfer Service, extended fax features, network bridging, peer to peer networking, support for most DSL modems, IEEE 802.11 (Wi-Fi) connections with auto configuration and roaming, TAPI 3.1, Bluetooth and networking over FireWire.

Wikipedia
Windows XP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Leaving the Firewall turned off was not a bug, it was a design/marketing decision!
Do realise that a Firewall is supposed to prevent unauthorised network intrusions (e.g. Worms, hackers/crackers)?

Despite knowing that Worms could get into Windows MS chose to leave the Firewall turned off.

Here are some notable events:

• May 2000: The ILOVEYOU worm, also known as VBS/Loveletter and Love Bug worm, is a computer worm written in Vb-script. It infected millions of computers worldwide within a few hours of its release. It is considered to be one of the most damaging worms ever.
• July 2001: The Code Red worm attacking the Index Server ISAPI Extension in Microsoft Internet Information Services is released.
• August 2001: A complete re-write of the Code Red worm, Code Red II begins aggressively spreading onto Microsoft systems
• XP released to computer manufacturers on August 24, 2001
• October 2001: The Klez worm is first identified. It exploits a vulnerability in Microsoft Internet Explorer and Microsoft Outlook and Outlook Express.
• XP Service Pack 1 (SP1) was released on September 9, 2002
• August 2003: The Blaster worm, aka the Lovesan worm, rapidly spreads by exploiting a vulnerability in system services present on Windows computers.
• May 2004: The Sasser worm emerges by exploiting a vulnerability in LSASS and causes problems in networks, while removing MyDoom and Bagle variants, even interrupting business.
• XP Service Pack 2 (SP2) was released on August 25, 2004 (Firewall turned on by default)

 

[GMan]

There was nothing called Windows Firewall in XP. It was called "Internet Connection Firewall".

Just because someone wants to deem something a mistake does not make it so.

 

[Coke Robot]

Say what you will say about MS, but they never set you up to fail.

How about releasing on OS with the firewall turned off?

Heck, even look at the sales of desktops, they're stagnant.

Ever heard of market saturation?

Most people who want a desktop already have one.
Most desktops last longer than 6 months.

The mobile phone market is saturated too.
They have a high turnover, because Apple says, "iPhone X is "the new black". You must be a loser if you are using anything else."

The only unsaturated market is Tablets.



Cars are still boxes with wheels.
We'd better get rid of them.

Towers are unchanged, because they actually work.

If someone slapped a mirror ball on a tower, you'd rush out and buy it then?



You've obviously never seen a HP All-in-one Touch PC with Windows 7 (not that I'd buy one, especially at the prices they want).

We have terabytes of video and music and tell everyone we know to get a SSD or more RAM because they help our needs, but most people could live without the plethora of RAM and the super fast speed.

Fair enough, if all you ever do is read email, use OneNote and/or Word, Twit and listen to some music.

But even then, there will be the Windows Slate options that have a lot of RAM and a large SSD and a fast processor because some poeple will want the flexibility of having desktop-like power, the efficiency of a laptop, having a natural input of touch, and the convenience of choosing how to use their device. That in a nutshell is what I think Windows 8 is about, flexibility in changing times.

They won't have desktop-type power.

My friend spent $3K on a laptop, so that he could spend 30 minutes/day (possibly) editing video on the bus.
It's more likely that he is just reading emails.
He can't use its full power without being plugged into the mains (it throttles itself down to save the battery).

He could have got a $2K monster desktop and monitor and a $1K laptop.
I have no doubt that combination would outperform his laptop.

I could have built 3 desktop systems, each much more powerful than my current set up, for that sort of money.
I can't even conceive of how powerful a $3K desktop PC would be. :shock:

BTW, I've never said that W8 isn't suitable for Phone and Tablet users.

You could say the desktop market is saturated, but that could be one of many things causing it. I find it's the lack of innovation and design, I know some people that oogle, myself included, at new laptops because they're being innovated design wise, with incredible thinness and speed and soon, new inputs. Sure, there are the desktops that are cool like the Alienware systems, but most people don't realize them and don't want to spend that much on a puter.

And yes, cars are still boxes with wheels, but they were horseless carriages at first, had fins, were fuel efficient, were gas guzzlers, and now they're turning into swoppy boxes running on electric power and alternate sources of fuel and still have high fuel mileage. That there is innovation.

I've seen and played with touch AIOs, but how many people actually have one and/or actually use the touch input?

I think you seem to define desktop power as something that is really high. Yes, you can overclock, get the fastest everything for less than a laptop equivalent more-or-less, but that's not the typical desktop power most people seek. Desktop power is at least, at the very least, a dual core processor at 2.8-3.0 GHz. Some mobile processors are getting to the point of that and will continue, as time progresses, at meeting that. One must consider they're low energy chips and the full throttle. And one must consider that people aren't buying desktops much anymore. Walk into your local best buy, walmart, or any electronic retailer and you'll see some tablets running crapdroid or crapOS, laptops up the butt, maybe some touch AIOs, but not a lot of desktops. Sure, they last, this is true, but so do laptops and potentially slates and tablets. Some may want a slate or a tablet to complement their desktop PC, or some may want one to be their only PC. It's a matter of choice.