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Microsoft may bring back full start menu with 8.2


mdmd

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what happened :(

oopsnotme.jpg
 

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hotrippr

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There is just too many things that are either too difficult or simply impossible to get to without a proper start button
For example?
 

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There is just too many things that are either too difficult or simply impossible to get to without a proper start button
For example?
Having two different versions of SQL server will mess up the searches. Installing SQL server and then the full version of VS 2010 will make searching for VS impossible. Having three different versions of VS (2008, 2010, 2012). Trying to find that program that you know where it is but can't remember the name of it. That happens to me a lot. There are these programs that are buried inside an application that I don't use every day but once every few weeks
 

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mdmd

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mdmd

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There is just too many things that are either too difficult or simply impossible to get to without a proper start button
For example?
Having two different versions of SQL server will mess up the searches. Installing SQL server and then the full version of VS 2010 will make searching for VS impossible. Having three different versions of VS (2008, 2010, 2012). Trying to find that program that you know where it is but can't remember the name of it. That happens to me a lot. There are these programs that are buried inside an application that I don't use every day but once every few weeks
Hello. Been down this road before. :) I agree that older installers can work better with older menuing tools.
SQL Server and different versions Visual Studio (and sub programs) can be pinned to the start screen as demonstrated previously. The installers are out of date. It can be easier for more complex programs to be listed in a classic menu if that is what you like. I agree with you to a point, but disagree about the impossible concept. ANY program that is installed or that exists, and is executable, can be pinned somewhere and included in search results if configured correctly.
 

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turbofish

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This is something that I have done at least a 100 times now with the same results (use to be a college professor and did many, many installs for students). Install SQL 2008R2, install VS 2010. Do a search for visual studio. You get zero return. Why? SQL 2008R2 installs the shell for VS 2010 and it is now called Data Tools (or something like that). Even installing the full version doesn't fix that. Plus, why would I want to spend all of that time creating new short cuts when the old system did it automatically?
 

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turbofish

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Just a note, this is a problem for Windows 8, windows 8. 1, windows 2012, windows 2012RT. It just creates more work for me to get around. Put in a start button/menu, bypass what was formerly known as metro (why in all that is good did Microsoft install that stupid crap on the servers?!) and you can forget about it
 

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turbofish

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But then again, my wife loves using modern UI apps on her surface. It just works better for devices that assume that you will be holding them in your hands such as a phone or tablet but for her desktop as well as all desktops that I set up for her at her work, she insists on a start button
 

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mdmd

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Just a note, this is a problem for Windows 8, windows 8. 1, windows 2012, windows 2012RT. It just creates more work for me to get around. Put in a start button/menu, bypass what was formerly known as metro (why in all that is good did Microsoft install that stupid crap on the servers?!) and you can forget about it
This is a point of view. :)
Why did they include WinRT on servers? Because Windows 8/8.1/2012/2012R2 share the same kernel design. It is not an installation. WinRT has many possibilities for development on Servers. Still, one can install server without a GUI, and run it completely from the command prompt.
 

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turbofish

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WinRT is ARM and has nothing to do with modern UI
 

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mdmd

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WinRT is ARM and has nothing to do with modern UI
ARM is a set of hardware codes designed by ARM Holdings for specific devices.
Windows Runtime is a development platform and not specific only to one format.

8kc.jpg

I will agree with you that a classic style menu would be well received by the majority.
 

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Coke Robot

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If we want to talk about things being lousy or whatnot, I find it's the Desktop UI of overlapping windows to be lousy. It's utterly inefficient if you want to do multiple tasks at once, ESPECIALLY on screens 15 inches and smaller. That's why the Taskbar was designed in Windows 95, it's quicker to use that to find a window pane that's buried behind everything else. The Desktop UI works nicely on actual desktop PCs with larger and higher resolution monitors.

The problem I find with WinRT and the Modern UI is that instead of pushing tried and true features and concepts into the Modern UI, it's gone and started from scratch.

The Desktop itself doesn't need to be abolished really, it just needs reinventing.

Luckily I have a design concept that does just that. :geek:
 

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pcRat

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Luckily I have a design concept that does just that
What is that - you made me curious.
:ditto:You've been mentioning your reinvented Desktop for quite some time and some of us are curious. BTW Welcome back Coke.
 

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Coke Robot

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Luckily I have a design concept that does just that
What is that - you made me curious.
I'll save it as a surprise. :)

Right now, I'm still doing some work on the mockup of it in Photoshop and typing up a whole post to accompany it, and then I'll post it soon. I think I need a website because some of what of everything I'll be going over ranges from a new Desktop UI style to consolidating SKUs to Xbox Music, File Explorer, and such. It'll probably be like Microsoft's MSDN Building Windows blog! :p

But I'll leave a tidbit of what the design I have going, it's like the Desktop but mixed with the Start Screen. It's like a virtual Desktop as in Linux, but better. A panoramic Desktop of sorts that scales perfectly on an 8 inch Dell Venue Pro all the way up to a six monitor desktop PC with no distinction or separation of UIs; it's one UI that can be controlled with typical expectations of a mouse pointer UI but works just as perfectly with touch, even with motion gestures. The controversial key I think will be the fact that window overlapping won't be allowed, which will be something I'll cover in that later post as to why such a thing won't happen.

Basically, instead of how that Windows 8.2 concept that has been floating around intends of literally forcing you to choose a UI for your input type, this UI won't. For example, if you have a Surface Pro 2 with its i5 processor that is pretty capable for heavy hitter programs, the UI style that the 8.2 concept entails is that you can only do two tasks at a time. Even though you have a tablet PC with an i3 or i5 or i7 processor, you can do whatever you want with it, but only two things at one time. That sucks. If you want to do more, you go to the Desktop UI but we all know by now that isn't always ideal for a tablet. What that concept didn't address was how it's supposed to work on touch enabled laptops or hybrid tablets (especially since that form factor seems to be selling pretty well). You have a touchpad to control a mouse pointer and a touchscreen. So....do you stick with the Desktop or stick with the touch first part of the UI? To me, this makes more confusion than what it should have solved.

Oh, Win32 and WinRT based programs will be able to work side by side, with very little distinction appearance wise, such as similar to that 8.2 concept where in the touch mode, a Desktop app and a Modern app snapped together don't appear to be different and aren't running in two different environments.
 

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nguchiro

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Now my question is partly an observation.

It seems that instead of LEARNING and TEACHING the new UI, everyone by default reverts to classic shell or something similar. You know, once you get a handle of the new part it's actually quite nice. Set up whatever default programs you want and put some start menu classic like File Explorer locations on the Start Screen. You don't need to use the Search Charm to search, you just type.

Microsoft's problem may not be the UI itself that's all of the problem, it's the uptake in people learning it. And when it comes to Windows, learning anything new is next to sin while sleeping with the devil himself. ;)

But yeah, some laptop touchpads SUCK for Windows 8 (looking at you Toshiba). The only touchpad I've recently come across that was amazing were a few ASUS laptops and the samsung 7 series ultrabook. That one has SO many gestures, up to four fingers! There is even on where using to fingers to tap on something opens the right click context menu. It was pretty neat, and very decently sized.
Yet again, people need to learn that....
With desktop you can arrange shortcuts any way you like and have instant access to your programs with one double or single click. You also have the taskbar where you can pin what programs you like. Metro is simply not designed for PCs and is a total hindrance to use. Also SEARCH in general is so useless that one should install a third party application to do searches. I tried to search for specific videos on my win 8 laptop and it simply failed to find them until I installed a third party application where it instantly found them in the folder that win 8 failed to find them.

The biggest problem with win 8 is not Metro as this can be taken care of with the excellent and totally free Classic Shell, but with the Useless Search. Actually Search started becoming bad with win7 and now is so bad that it is easier to search manually!
 

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Coke Robot

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Now my question is partly an observation.

It seems that instead of LEARNING and TEACHING the new UI, everyone by default reverts to classic shell or something similar. You know, once you get a handle of the new part it's actually quite nice. Set up whatever default programs you want and put some start menu classic like File Explorer locations on the Start Screen. You don't need to use the Search Charm to search, you just type.

Microsoft's problem may not be the UI itself that's all of the problem, it's the uptake in people learning it. And when it comes to Windows, learning anything new is next to sin while sleeping with the devil himself. ;)

But yeah, some laptop touchpads SUCK for Windows 8 (looking at you Toshiba). The only touchpad I've recently come across that was amazing were a few ASUS laptops and the samsung 7 series ultrabook. That one has SO many gestures, up to four fingers! There is even on where using to fingers to tap on something opens the right click context menu. It was pretty neat, and very decently sized.
Yet again, people need to learn that....
With desktop you can arrange shortcuts any way you like and have instant access to your programs with one double or single click. You also have the taskbar where you can pin what programs you like. Metro is simply not designed for PCs and is a total hindrance to use. Also SEARCH in general is so useless that one should install a third party application to do searches. I tried to search for specific videos on my win 8 laptop and it simply failed to find them until I installed a third party application where it instantly found them in the folder that win 8 failed to find them.

The biggest problem with win 8 is not Metro as this can be taken care of with the excellent and totally free Classic Shell, but with the Useless Search. Actually Search started becoming bad with win7 and now is so bad that it is easier to search manually!
The Start Screen does let you pin whatever you want to it whether it been Desktop apps, File Explorer locations, Control Panel subsections, or folders. It's easy if not easier to arrange those tiles in the way you like them versus on the Desktop.

If Windows' search isn't finding a video file, you either have an indexing issue or a metadata issue. I've never had problems in the many years of Windows indexing and searching files I'm looking for. Windows 8 is no different in that regard.
 

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alphanumeric

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It's easy if not easier to arrange those tiles in the way you like them versus on the Desktop.
I think a lot of people would disagree with that comment. I find the auto shuffle when you move one tile around to be a real pain. Being locked into stacked columns of two isn't ideal either. You have to fill the first two columns top to bottom before you can go three wide in a group. And then you have to go 4 wide if you add any more. Arranging Icons on the desktop is a lot less restrictive. I like Windows 8 but this is one aspect of the Start Screen the really annoys me. IMHO, its anything but easy to get things just the way you want them. YMMV.
 

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mdmd

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It's easy if not easier to arrange those tiles in the way you like them versus on the Desktop.
I think a lot of people would disagree with that comment. I find the auto shuffle when you move one tile around to be a real pain. Being locked into stacked columns of two isn't ideal either. You have to fill the first two columns top to bottom before you can go three wide in a group. And then you have to go 4 wide if you add any more. Arranging Icons on the desktop is a lot less restrictive. I like Windows 8 but this is one aspect of the Start Screen the really annoys me. IMHO, its anything but easy to get things just the way you want them. YMMV.
They would, but I like the auto shuffle. Everything always auto positions perfectly! And anyway, my preference is to only keep a few tiles pinned that I use everyday. I can pin and unpin as needed, also > I don't use groups. I let the apps area handle that.
 

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