Let's have a massive discussion about Windows 8

[crawfish]

I think the Windows 7 taskbar WAS a huge Quicklaunch bar...

Not even close. The Windows 7 taskbar merged the limited functionality of Quick Launch with the original reason for the taskbar, locating open windows, and added new features like jump lists and progress indicators. The ability to pin icons to the taskbar is the best thing Microsoft has ever done for the Windows interface, and it isn't close. When you pin programs, you know where to go to launch them and where to look for them when they're running, and you get to choose where on the taskbar they go. The taskbar remains visible so you can take advantage of this and the other things like jump lists and progress bars when multitasking. Anybody who uses Quick Launch in Windows 7 can't be taken seriously on anything, because it reduces the space in which you can pin programs, and the ability to pin programs subsumes the functionality of Quick Launch while adding so much more. Anyone who understands these things and possesses even modest intelligence leaves Quick Launch disabled and pins programs. After 15 years of this interface, Microsoft finally innovated something with the Windows 7 taskbar, and they got it really, really right. Unfortunately, the Windows HE debacle proves it was just a fluke.

 

[gazz9496]

i'd say microsoft have a bigger problem than just their start menu being crap, the fact that decent touch screens cost either the same as the pc or more is a far far bigger problem.

The biggest problem of all is the dearth of applications for the PC form factor that are by their nature amenable to touch. Word processors? Nah. Spreadsheets? Forget it. Message boards? Not on your life. Basically anything that involves a lot of typing or benefits from the precision of the mouse just doesn't translate well to touch. Then there is the awkwardness of reaching out in front to touch the screen, which requires you to be close enough, obscures what you're touching, and smudges the screen. I guess programs that closely emulate the interfaces of physical devices can benefit, such as digital audio workstation software, which tend to have lots of sliders, rotary controls, etc. A child's fingerpainting program would benefit. Anything else?

that is also true, but the cost of touch screen monitors of decent size and quality is also a hinderance to the cause.

I wonder if microsoft have trully considered software issues past and future, will all new revisions of lets say photo shop be touch screen friendly? somehow i doubt it unless were going back to stick man drawings and really dodgy looking touch ups.

I don't mean to bash microsoft but the market just isn't in a good enough place for this kind of release right now, They must think the world is hunky dory and there isn't a massive unemployment crisis all over the place, unless there is a massive drop in price for touch screen and a huge uptake from software manufacterers this could be the worst release of a new os in history.

 

[lehnerus2000]

I surprised that the software makers aren't demanding that MS pay them to make programs (and apps) for W8.

 

[SIW2]

Don't you think it odd Steve Ballmer is projecting fantasy sales for this thing?

He must know it is not well liked, to put it mildly.

They have got something up their sleeve.

Couple of possibilities:

Maybe they are going to give it away for $30 or so.

Or, maybe they are betting the farm on this, we can't tell how much they are investing with the oem's and the marketing push - it could be billions.

One thing is for sure - this o/s is not going to sell itself.

 

[Coke Robot]

I think the Windows 7 taskbar WAS a huge Quicklaunch bar...

Not even close. The Windows 7 taskbar merged the limited functionality of Quick Launch with the original reason for the taskbar, locating open windows, and added new features like jump lists and progress indicators. The ability to pin icons to the taskbar is the best thing Microsoft has ever done for the Windows interface, and it isn't close. When you pin programs, you know where to go to launch them and where to look for them when they're running, and you get to choose where on the taskbar they go. The taskbar remains visible so you can take advantage of this and the other things like jump lists and progress bars when multitasking. Anybody who uses Quick Launch in Windows 7 can't be taken seriously on anything, because it reduces the space in which you can pin programs, and the ability to pin programs subsumes the functionality of Quick Launch while adding so much more. Anyone who understands these things and possesses even modest intelligence leaves Quick Launch disabled and pins programs. After 15 years of this interface, Microsoft finally innovated something with the Windows 7 taskbar, and they got it really, really right. Unfortunately, the Windows HE debacle proves it was just a fluke.

I think they got the idea of the Taskbar for 7 from the Quicklaunch, because you pin an item to the taskbar, it's always there, and it launches pretty quick since I think if early Windows versions, part of the programs was put into RAM at startup if you have a quicklaunch item. I'm not sure though. And, it uses the program icons, the main different is that became a the taskbar and was about 20 pixels bigger.

 

[Coke Robot]

Don't you think it odd Steve Ballmer is projecting fantasy sales for this thing?

He must know it is not well liked, to put it mildly.

They have got something up their sleeve.

Couple of possibilities:

Maybe they are going to give it away for $30 or so.

Or, maybe they are betting the farm on this, we can't tell how much they are investing with the oem's and the marketing push - it could be billions.

One thing is for sure - this o/s is not going to sell itself.

I think Ballmer arrogantly thought that since about 525 millions PCs are rocking 7, they must end up running 8. But then again, that could potentially happen since until now and next February, it will cost 15 dollars to upgrade. At that cost, which is less than anti-virus protection, less than Office, less than many paid software; some might think that they might not have a lot to lose.

 

[Coke Robot]

i'd say microsoft have a bigger problem than just their start menu being crap, the fact that decent touch screens cost either the same as the pc or more is a far far bigger problem.

The biggest problem of all is the dearth of applications for the PC form factor that are by their nature amenable to touch. Word processors? Nah. Spreadsheets? Forget it. Message boards? Not on your life. Basically anything that involves a lot of typing or benefits from the precision of the mouse just doesn't translate well to touch. Then there is the awkwardness of reaching out in front to touch the screen, which requires you to be close enough, obscures what you're touching, and smudges the screen. I guess programs that closely emulate the interfaces of physical devices can benefit, such as digital audio workstation software, which tend to have lots of sliders, rotary controls, etc. A child's fingerpainting program would benefit. Anything else?

Pretty much any touch desktop PC always has a keyboard. Even Windows slates generally include a dock, a mouse, and a keyboard from the manufacturer. But I think it's funny how a concern of touch goes back to smudges. It makes me laugh since using a smartphone will have a plethora of smudge on the screen. Even then, just think for a second. Those smudges may not end up on the screen, but they do end up on your mouse and keyboard. In fact, a typical keyboard has more germs than a toilet!

Disinfecting wipes anyone?....

 

[tseven]

It would be nice if they had pen support that would be good for precision like design and multimedia stuff. Although it still won't be a solution for typing based work. But it will help designers and such. Maybe it is already there but I don't have a tablet to try that feature if it is there.

After using it I love the performance but other than that I still feel the same which is I like the performance but what they have done is nothing extraordinary. Also they have manage to make the legibility of a lot of the stuff even worse this time around.

 

[mart4494]

But then again, that could potentially happen since until now and next February, it will cost 15 dollars to upgrade.

I'd 'upgrade' at that cost and put it in the drawer to use to upgrade to Win9!!!!

 

[mart4494]

The Microsoft feedback on the preview releases have shown an almost even 50/50 love/hate split. I don;t think I've see that much division in the windows camp in my entire , from the start, windows career.

If any normal company had received 50% negative feedback on their future product they would think long and hard about what they were doing. MS though are living in a bubble over this and believe they can drive the market in whatever direction they feel.

 

[gazz9496]

The Microsoft feedback on the preview releases have shown an almost even 50/50 love/hate split. I don;t think I've see that much division in the windows camp in my entire , from the start, windows career.

If any normal company had received 50% negative feedback on their future product they would think long and hard about what they were doing. MS though are living in a bubble over this and believe they can drive the market in whatever direction they feel.

In some ways they should be driving the market, I feel the market is going to slow in some ways but not in all directions, there is tech out there that none of us will see for years despite it being there and used by military's already, as well as tech ready for the market but no supporting hardware to go with it.

the home pc is in some ways holding the market back from expanding, but i just don't see this os as the one that will want people to change or review how they use tech or other devices despite how well this os integrates so well with other software and social media.

 

[crawfish]

The Microsoft feedback on the preview releases have shown an almost even 50/50 love/hate split. I don;t think I've see that much division in the windows camp in my entire , from the start, windows career.

If any normal company had received 50% negative feedback on their future product they would think long and hard about what they were doing. MS though are living in a bubble over this and believe they can drive the market in whatever direction they feel.

When they switched MSDN from Windows Help to HTML circa 1998, the hate was universal. I understood why they did it, but it took 5 years for them to get the local viewer maybe 90% as good as the one they dumped. It never fully recovered. On the plus side, the MSDN library is available over the web. The best thing about that has been that it's indexed by google, because its own search has been worthless. At least google used to be good. Now Microsoft redirects through live.com when I click on a google result for MSDN, and I get a security warning:

"Although this page is encrypted, the information you have entered is to be sent over an unencrypted connection and could easily be read by a third party.

Are you sure you want to continue sending this information?"

When I click the back button in the browser, it either refreshes the page or stops on a blank live.com page. Same thing for Microsoft Technet and "Discussions". The latter rarely has any relevant information when I'm searching for problems, and I'm seriously considering blocking it from my google results. Things were a lot better back in the Usenet days.

As for Windows HE, I've been playing around with the Release Preview in a VM, and the more I use it, the more astonished I become at how horrible it is. It's like watching a degenerate gambler blow their life savings and kid's college fund. While Windows HE is Microsoft's desperate reaction to losing the mobile market, I think it stands a good chance of making them even more irrelevant there, because a lot of people are going to look at the damage done to Windows and reject the whole concept.

 

[skyfallcinema]

Welcome to Eight Forums Digital Analogy.

Agree, it just takes a little time to learn how to use it.
So far, for me, the advantages out weigh the learning curve.

Yes. People don't really like to adapt and are scared of change. I, personally, love Win 8 so far.

 

[mart4494]

Yes. People don't really like to adapt and are scared of change. I, personally, love Win 8 so far.

Not true. No one is scared about change provided there are real world benefits at the end of the learning curve. It is MS that are scared of loosing their income stream and are determined to push folks towards paid for apps and subscription cloud computing.

If there was not that fear factor within MS they would offer the choice of Metro UI or Classic during installation surely.

 

[FSeal]

Yes. People don't really like to adapt and are scared of change. I, personally, love Win 8 so far.

Not true. No one is scared about change provided there are real world benefits at the end of the learning curve. It is MS that are scared of loosing their income stream and are determined to push folks towards paid for apps and subscription cloud computing.

If there was not that fear factor within MS they would offer the choice of Metro UI or Classic during installation surely.

I agree...

What MS appears to be doing by forcing Metro on desktops and doing everything possible to force people to write metro apps, putting nothing but Metro apps in the store, free dev tools made for Metro only etc, is an attempt to pre-seed an entire windows 8 tablet infrastructure out of "nothing" by leveraging their hundreds of millions of desktop users as tools to do so.

 

[legacy7955]

Yes. People don't really like to adapt and are scared of change. I, personally, love Win 8 so far.

Not true. No one is scared about change provided there are real world benefits at the end of the learning curve. It is MS that are scared of loosing their income stream and are determined to push folks towards paid for apps and subscription cloud computing.

If there was not that fear factor within MS they would offer the choice of Metro UI or Classic during installation surely.

I agree...

What MS appears to be doing by forcing Metro on desktops and doing everything possible to force people to write metro apps, putting nothing but Metro apps in the store, free dev tools made for Metro only etc, is an attempt to pre-seed an entire windows 8 tablet infrastructure out of "nothing" by leveraging their hundreds of millions of desktop users as tools to do so.

In the process earning the animosity of tens of millions (hundreds?) of desktop users which ALSO would likely buy a Windows Phone if not for this OBNOXIOUS middle finger being waved in front of our faces called Metro, being forced which absolutely has no place on the desktop.

I wonder how many angry Windows users that WOULD HAVE GLADLY PURCHASED A WINDOWS PHONE now will go with some other phone tablet out of SPITE? Count me in...if M$ doesn't give desktop users a way to skip metro and boot directly to the desktop as the default UI.

 

[Coke Robot]

Not true. No one is scared about change provided there are real world benefits at the end of the learning curve. It is MS that are scared of loosing their income stream and are determined to push folks towards paid for apps and subscription cloud computing.

If there was not that fear factor within MS they would offer the choice of Metro UI or Classic during installation surely.

I agree...

What MS appears to be doing by forcing Metro on desktops and doing everything possible to force people to write metro apps, putting nothing but Metro apps in the store, free dev tools made for Metro only etc, is an attempt to pre-seed an entire windows 8 tablet infrastructure out of "nothing" by leveraging their hundreds of millions of desktop users as tools to do so.

In the process earning the animosity of tens of millions (hundreds?) of desktop users which ALSO would likely buy a Windows Phone if not for this OBNOXIOUS middle finger called Metro being forced which absolutely has no place of the desktop.

I wonder how many angry Windows users that WOULD HAVE GLADLY PURCHASED A WINDOWS PHONE now will go with some other phone tablet out of SPITE? Count me in...if M$ doesn't give desktop users a way to skip metro and boot directly to the desktop as the default UI.

I've actually purchased a Windows Phone in April and I have NO intentions to go to android or ios because unlike those two, I choose to put people first on a phone, not apps.

 

[ssbtech]

Your start menu reminds me of the xp days with the flyouts that took more than half the Desktop, and then moving the mouse cursor a few pixels from the last flyout and everything vanishing..... oh man....

Well you can see with that many applications on my system why I'd not want to be confined to the tiny little Start menu in Vista and 7. Sorted alphabetically it works perfectly, and with the program I found that does the cascading programs menu, moving the mouse off the last flyout doesn't make everything go away.

 

[ssbtech]

I think the Windows 7 taskbar WAS a huge Quicklaunch bar...

Sort of, except I didn't like the pinning. There's something unnatural about clicking on a running program to start another instance of it.

 

[ssbtech]

I think the Windows 7 taskbar WAS a huge Quicklaunch bar...

Not even close. The Windows 7 taskbar merged the limited functionality of Quick Launch with the original reason for the taskbar, locating open windows, and added new features like jump lists and progress indicators. The ability to pin icons to the taskbar is the best thing Microsoft has ever done for the Windows interface, and it isn't close. When you pin programs, you know where to go to launch them and where to look for them when they're running, and you get to choose where on the taskbar they go. The taskbar remains visible so you can take advantage of this and the other things like jump lists and progress bars when multitasking. Anybody who uses Quick Launch in Windows 7 can't be taken seriously on anything, because it reduces the space in which you can pin programs, and the ability to pin programs subsumes the functionality of Quick Launch while adding so much more. Anyone who understands these things and possesses even modest intelligence leaves Quick Launch disabled and pins programs. After 15 years of this interface, Microsoft finally innovated something with the Windows 7 taskbar, and they got it really, really right. Unfortunately, the Windows HE debacle proves it was just a fluke.

The Quicklaunch bar is also always visible, just like pinned programs. I don't like a cluttered taskbar, I just want it to show what is running. I don't like looking at a row of icons wondering if the program is running or if it's just a shortcut. I find the default Windows 7 taskbar to be too big and cluttered.

But hey, at least Windows 7 can be nicely customized to match my workflow.