Desktop will stay - MS OS chief Myerson

Two good articles from Mary Jo. Interview with Terry Myerson, Microsoft's Executive Vice President of operating systems

Microsoft OS chief Myerson on the future of 'One Windows' | ZDNet

Microsoft OS chief Myerson talks turkey on transparency, cadence and cross platform | ZDNet

MYERSON: We actually value using the desktop. I feel highly productive using it. It's very familiar to me. We plan -- (as) we talked about at the Build conference -- to bring modern apps to the desktop. We are going to have machines that have a great desktop experience.

It (the desktop) is also not the right experience for a phone or a tablet. And so how the Windows experience spans these form factors and is familiar across them -- that's what we need to deliver if we're going to delight people in the whole ecosystem.

The desktop is part of our future. It's absolutely core to Windows.

Jim

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there.

Unifying code has been done simply for ages -- Look for example at SAP ABAP - Source Language which is a bit like a modernized mix of IBM's mainframe PL/1 - remember that) with some Cobol and OO thrown in. A few statements have also been added for handling relational databases and some simple SQL.

The same ABAP SOURCE program will run on almost ANY SAP system - independent of whatever the underlying Host machine architecture is.

The ABAP source converts to a unified "Meta machine language" if you like and then this will execute on the Host. The HOST converts the "Meta language" to executable code either by "Interpreting" it or as pre-compiled executable code. The speed of modern processors is perfectly fast enough to perform this process fast enough even for HUGE production systems.

ABAP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The advantage of the single "Meta code" is that the SOURCE can be developed on almost any platform and executed on any other.

There's no reason why Windows and RT apps couldn't use the same methodology -- there's nothing wrong in using ARM type processors (unless your are an INTEL shareholder of course). This way Ms developed apps could also run on ANDROID phones too.

(This is all OLD technology just being used in a modern way -- you say "Meta code" to people and they look at you as if it's something out of Science Fiction". --Arghh!! --the wonders of the modern education system -- but that unfortunately is another whole topic for another place !!).

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Tepid]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Doesn't matter, they both taste good.

 

[Tepid]

So, I watched the whole Build Day 1 Key Note video
Time Line 2:10:10

Official Announcement..... No date for when,, but is coming as a Free Windows 8.1 Update
Yes, that is Native Windowed Apps, yes those are Tiles on the Start Menu
Yes, this is official and not a concept.....

Interactive Tiles are also coming......

If you haven't seen it yet, or if it has already been posted,,,, Enjoy....

 

[Mystere]

For real power and overall consistency, we need full blown desktop apps that can take full advantage of a system.
WinRT is not that environment.

Today.

It will eventually be that environment, but it will be a process. Win32 of today did not happen overnight. It took 20 years to get there. Win32 is considered mature, and new OS versions are not adding much in the way of Win32 functionality. All new functionality is focused on WinRT. Eventually, WinRT will match, and then surpass Win32 and at that time it will make sense for the Win32 to start being deprecated.

Yes, this is official and not a concept.....

Actually, it is a concept. They've officially said that what was shown at Build is not going to be what they deliver.. the final will be something else, but it will probably have most of the concepts shown there.

 

[Tepid]

For real power and overall consistency, we need full blown desktop apps that can take full advantage of a system.
WinRT is not that environment.

Today.

It will eventually be that environment, but it will be a process. Win32 of today did not happen overnight. It took 20 years to get there. Win32 is considered mature, and new OS versions are not adding much in the way of Win32 functionality. All new functionality is focused on WinRT. Eventually, WinRT will match, and then surpass Win32 and at that time it will make sense for the Win32 to start being deprecated.

IF, we get WinRT, it will need to be far more robust and open than it is now.
This is my primary beef with the WinRT environment,,,,

WinRT apps can only be sideloaded from outside Windows Store on Windows 8 or RT systems that are part of a Windows domain, or equipped with a special activation key obtained from Microsoft

That needs to be fleshed out and explained in deeper detail exactly what that means.
It's telling me that not only do I have to purchase an off the shelf software, but if I want to run it on an RT Device
I need to get special permission from MS to do so.
Or essentially every piece of software will HAVE come through the App Store,, another bad idea.

How difficult will that be to obtain?
What requirements will be demanded?
What issues will that create for transfer to another PC?
What issues will that create if for some reason someone decides to blacklist that Key?

There are far more ramifications surrounding WinRT on a Desktop/laptop/tablet than there are on xBox or WP.

However, I probably need to learn a bit more about WinRT as a whole.
Right now, it is perceived as a closed/restricted system based on the WinRT Arm devices and WP RT.

I am hoping this will include Cross App Authentication and the open ability to install anything I want,
not just what some higher up thinks I should be able to do or not do. that would not be good for anyone.
That may be going to a certain extreme, but, this is my perception right now.

One Code to rule them all is fine, as long as I as a user am not
locked down in some managed environment I have no control over.
no WP does not count. Most everything I have is on my phone, I want that as secure as possible.
My desktop/laptop and tablet I will manage myself.
There are certain restrictions that are acceptable, but WinRT's closed system is not as a total environment.

I could be way off base, but it seems to me we could be looking at another iPad.

I seriously doubt that is what Windows will turn into as a whole. That would just be stupid.

 

[mdmd]

It depends on the time frame. If one is always referring to what will be in the short term,
in terms of the existence of Microsoft, the discussion of the explorer shell will always be very limited.
If we don't EMP the grid, there may be a future.

I think AI will take the place of the mouse and keyboard eventually.
How we interact with machines will change.
Personally, I won't be around for the demise of explorer or Microsoft but it will happen eventually.
The Science behind Science Fiction might play a role in the future. Who cares about SAP ?
Ever seen Red Dwarf ? Computer - (make coffee) (how you like it) ha

These designs are interesting. I wonder if Windex will exist in 2414? Or 4414?

 

[jimbo45]

It depends on the time frame. If one is always referring to what will be in the short term,
in terms of the existence of Microsoft, the discussion of the explorer shell will always be very limited.
If we don't EMP the grid, there may be a future.

I think AI will take the place of the mouse and keyboard eventually.
How we interact with machines will change.
Personally, I won't be around for the demise of explorer or Microsoft but it will happen eventually.
The Science behind Science Fiction might play a role in the future. Who cares about SAP ?
Ever seen Red Dwarf ? Computer - (make coffee) (how you like it) ha

These designs are interesting. I wonder if Windex will exist in 2414? Or 4414?

View attachment 41538

Hi there

SAP is still BY FAR the biggest ERP system in the world -- pretty well ANY organisation slightly bigger than One man and his dog operating from "Under the Railway Arches" has direct or indirect with SAP software -- pretty well anything you buy has been sourced, ordered, packed, manufactured, assembled and delivered using SAP software. While the average person might not have ever heard of it -- it is of absolutely crucial importance in todays e-commerce, production, HR and almost any other area of business you can think of - and probably
areas you can't as well.

SAP's use of Metacode is how it runs on a huge variety of different hardware architectures and OS'es.

Using SAP as an example I was suggesting Ms could easily unify Windows and Windows RT for the improvement of BOTH using the same philosophy.

Cheers
jimno

 

[Mystere]

SAP's use of Metacode is how it runs on a huge variety of different hardware architectures and OS'es.

Using SAP as an example I was suggesting Ms could easily unify Windows and Windows RT for the improvement of BOTH using the same philosophy.

I think you mean byte code. Metacode is a technology used by Xerox for page definition...

In any event, the irony here is that WinRT is based on a scaled down version of the .NET runtime, which is.. guess what? A byte code based virtual machine, similar to Java, ABAP, Pascal, and several other systems.

Funny how the very thing you claim MS should be doing and will save them is the very thing they've been doing all along.

 

[Rickkins]

So, I watched the whole Build Day 1 Key Note video
Time Line 2:10:10

Official Announcement..... No date for when,, but is coming as a Free Windows 8.1 Update
Yes, that is Native Windowed Apps, yes those are Tiles on the Start Menu
Yes, this is official and not a concept.....

Interactive Tiles are also coming......

If you haven't seen it yet, or if it has already been posted,,,, Enjoy....

View attachment 41524

What's the term I'm looking for...??

Oh yea.... flogging a dead horse.
Talk about not getting it.

 

[Tepid]

I posted this in another thread, but think it fits equally well here

Actually, if the option is there, what is wrong with it?
I actually like that Start Menu, I would surely use the Start button more often.

What is the aversion to Tiles and Live Tiles, they are essentially Gadgets.
Everyone was googoo for gadgets not too long ago.
Everyone has Gadgets on their phones, (yes, I mean Apps, which many are just gadgets)

seriously, it makes no sense.

I think some people will go out of their way to bash on Win8, just for the sake of bashing on Win8.
I think some people would be more satisfied if MS said, ok we give up, here's Win7, we are done.
Closed up shop and ended it all.

Now THAT would be something to see. holy cow would this planet be in a world of real hurt.
Yeah, not over night, and yeah, Mac could swoop in and save us all, or maybe google, we all know Linux community couldn't do it
they can't agree on a single thing, other than, if you are not using Linux, your not worth the time to speak to.

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there.

The limitations of the "Tile based" Os become absolutely OBVIOUS - even on a smart phone.

I've had my Samsung S5 just for about a WEEK now -- the larger screen (5.25 ins - just about the largest that IMO is useable for a mobile phone before it becomes a REDICULOUS "Phablet") is absolutely a worthwhile upgrade even if just for that larger screen feature (even upgrading from an S4 - no mean slouch itself) but scrolling over 4 or 5 screens full of tiles is really an irritating experience in the extreme -- anything more than about 20 - 30 tiles and I file the whole thing almost unuseable - endlessly swiping screens to find the app you want -- and it's not really easy to arrange these decently either -- especially as all those ANNOYING WIDGETS get in the way too -- Windows phones may have an advantage there.

To suggest that this type of Interface is useable in any sensible manner on a "WORKHORSE DESKTOP / LAPTOP SYSTEM" used for office based work is just so totally bovine that it doesn't even bear thinking about any more.

By all means incorporate parts of a mobile OS if people want to have some sort if unity between their mobile devices and desktops - but that should be an ADDON or extra configuration option like it is in the latest Windows 8.1 update 1 (boot to desktop is now the DEFAULT mode).

Ms would have kept complaints down to a minimum -- and while I can also live without the menu screen it's obvious for all sorts of reasons that removing it was a totally bad move on Ms's part.

If a start menu IS brought back then some of the screenshots posted above look fine -- although I'd still like to be able to mimmize the menu (rather like the Old XP menu with the small icons) and how a lot of Linux distros do it - where you get the choice of switching between the menu styles.

(Examples shown below from Linux Mint KDE 16 - application view and "classical" view) - The backgrounds / designs etc are quite configurable --Windows Please note !!!!).

 

[Tepid]

i do agree to an extent when it comes,to the start screen
my wife is guilty of an ever scrolling start screen on her Surface Pro, but she likes it that way.

I want to see live tiles on the right side of the start menu cause I found almost no use for all the links there in 7
At least it would make that space more usable, but for others turn it off. no harm done.

there are so many options for these things possible, it's a shame to not make them all available to those who want them.

Gadgetized desktop interactive tiles for many reasons,, stock tickers, news feeds, server/system alerts for admins
the list is endless and would be freaking awesome.
Security cameras, or whatever you might be interested in.


live tiles (interactive) available off start button and then everything grouped off start screen

MS has a world of opportunity here to make windows appeal to absolutely everyone.

And this, no other system could top with out major shift/development changes, that I highly doubt they are anywhere close to gearing up for.

Internet of Everything devices should make this possible, probable, and MS would miss a golden opportunity to pass on this concept.

With that said, I doubt it will matter, someone/many will find fault regardless.

 

[CountMike]

If it would only automatically (or sort of) that elusive Start Menu sort programs by function with sub-menus like on that picture it might be even usable and even better than on W7. Once I got past couple of hundred programs installed in Win7, it was a pain to find a program thru it. Of course, it could be customized, with links in sub menus but it was a too much work and had to be done every time you install or uninstall a program. On the Modern UI Start page it is done much easier, so I'm using that option even without any Modern Apps installed and only couple of Live Tiles. Only thing I'm missing is vertical instead of horizontal scrolling.

 

[jimbo45]

If it would only automatically (or sort of) that elusive Start Menu sort programs by function with sub-menus like on that picture it might be even usable and even better than on W7. Once I got past couple of hundred programs installed in Win7, it was a pain to find a program thru it. Of course, it could be customized, with links in sub menus but it was a too much work and had to be done every time you install or uninstall a program. On the Modern UI Start page it is done much easier, so I'm using that option even without any Modern Apps installed and only couple of Live Tiles. Only thing I'm missing is vertical instead of horizontal scrolling.

Hi there
with customized toolbars you can create a little file and then re-load it every time you update a system --it's easy --I think I had a couple of posts on doing that a while ago.

http://www.eightforums.com/general-support/35991-creating-usable-pgm-toolbar-sub-menus.html

Cheers
jimbo

 

[CountMike]

Maybe this belongs to customizing section since we are talking here abut this stuff, here's my desktop now. What I would like to se or be able to do is to make those folders on the top in the rectangle to open on mouse over and reveal stuff in them as a menu instead of having to click on them.

so it would end up as something like this but maybe with nicer background on that window..

 

[Fredledingue]

The start screen is not totaly ridiculous, but it's not a start menu in the sens that it doesn't have the function of listing all your programs and sort them in drop-down sublists.
The start screen is basicaly another desktop. I like the idea of a multi page desktop on the start screen, and the presence of the taskbar (W8.1) which make it much more usable.
Yet it's uselessly redundant. The old desktop still offers more possibilities except for multipaging.


Metro apps are totaly useless when you migrate from a previous version of Windows.

Gadgetized desktop interactive tiles for many reasons,, stock tickers, news feeds, server/system alerts for admins
the list is endless and would be freaking awesome.
Security cameras, or whatever you might be interested in.

I agree. I must be cool to get aglance of all the stuffs of interrest as soon as you turn on your computer.
But why should it be "smartphone" oriented? Why smartphone apps? Why smartphone style? That's non-sens.


Let's make a thing which can work on widows natively, not on a parrallel OS.


Metro Apps are useless. The idea that some corporate or individuals want to have some unity in the apps they use is discutable because nobody is such a moron that they can't read or edit datas with different interfaces or softwares. If there is realy a need for this, let's write a windows version of the phone one. Not the other way round. I don't see any use to replicate your phone/tablet environement on a desktop/laptop pc save for actualy call somebody on the telephone from your PC.

 

[Tepid]

Metro Apps are useless. The idea that some corporate or individuals want to have some unity in the apps they use is discutable because nobody is such a moron that they can't read or edit datas with different interfaces or softwares. If there is realy a need for this, let's write a windows version of the phone one. Not the other way round. I don't see any use to replicate your phone/tablet environement on a desktop/laptop pc save for actualy call somebody on the telephone from your PC.

This is where you completely miss the point of Universal apps.
You write the Base code, and it is compatible across all devices.
You write the GUI to fit the device.
Most of the time, when you get the GUI right, the only thing that changes and get's tweaked is the base code.

Now, imagine you have to fix it for several different platforms....
Once for Phone, Once for PC, Once for xBox, maybe Once for Tablet?
That is 4 times you have to do it, now imagine your code works perfectly on Phone, but doesn't on PC or xBox
You get the code fixed for PC, and how long did that take?

Now you have to fix it for xBox, how long? Were new bugs introduced? Possibly. but now you have
to figure what happened to the code on the xBox App that works perfectly on Phone and PC, which you had to fix separately.

Not to mention if you decide to support iPhone, iPad and Android, Chromebooks.

With Windows, you fixed it ONCE and it works across all Windows devices. How long did that take?

While you are messing around fixing your App for several different Platforms, others will be done and moving on.

And Apps are not useless on PC. They have their place. But like on all eco-systems, trash apps exist.

hopefully we will see some major changes in Win9 to accommodate
a better flow and use of the system overall,, more integration with the desktop over all.

 

[mdmd]

The start screen is not totally ridiculous, but it's not a start menu in the sense that it doesn't have the function of listing all your programs and sort them in drop-down sublists.

Hello. Welcome back. I offer this only.
The start screen is not a start menu because it is not a start menu.
It is a launcher like Rocket Dock or Object Dock
and includes Live Tiles and tile notifications for those that need them.
It allows for synchronization across devices if desired.



You're right, it is multipage and allows for unlimited pins unlike the desktop.

The Windows 8 menu is in apps (rant !! )
Sublists or nests are not necessarily needed.
... \AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs
... \ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs

 

[Rickkins]

You got your peanut butter on my chocolate.
You got your chocolate in my peanut butter.

 

[mdmd]

Suggesting it's a point of view. ok.

The Microsoft Vision is to have us all slavishly adopt everything.
Does lock stepping and Lemmings ring any bells?

A person could say this is a menu.



Just to be controversial,
I disagree that it is a view.

This is undeniable and points to the automatic organization in the Apps Screen.
Also, these are where desktop menus get their lists.
... \AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs
... \ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs

Is this a menu?



Or this?



Both are? ok. Giggles.