8.1 Evaluation from Windows Secrets Newsletter
- Thread starter fireberd
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This is the same thoughts I have when someone makes arguments about things that are a personnel preference, not a statistical fact, as they claim.
Your post deserves a big green check mark, "Problem Solved".
Now we can move on to other Windows 8.1 evaluation issues.
Rickkins
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Well, I'm glad you asked. It's like this.....
The "start menu replacements" do not solve anything. They do mask the larger issue though.
What larger issue, you ask... Simple. The larger issue is that all the current desktop apps may eventually be phased out, leaving us with only tifkam apps.... and that would be a freakin' tragedy, an actual disaster of epic proportions....
Yes, I know some really like the metro stuff, but a majority do not, regardless of how shiny and new they may seem. Metro will never match the power of the desktop. It's not meant to. All metro was meant to do, was to squeeze more money out of the people.
I just find it sad that some folks just don't seem to see that they're being conned....
Ah, so you're getting worked up about a potential future situation that may never happen. I see. And yet, you're another one that is using and supporting the very OS you think is going to lead to an "actual disaster of epic proportions". You really shouldn't be supporting MS at all, so I suggest you format your Windows 8 Pro machine and install Linux immediately.
Rickkins
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Oh, ok, my mistake. I thought you actually wanted to have an intelligent conversation.
Carry on.
HippsieGypsie
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Not trying to undermine your response nor your forecast whatsoever, djsigma, but MS may be heading for the pure Modern/Metro interface, for it is the main UI of of what the critics adjudicated and deemed the system as the "two-headed" monster. > The desktop is treated as an app. < This is the clue that I think gives away the direction that they are taking. That's the way I see it anyway. I wouldn't be surprised (as an example) if they are writing Office in this interface as we speak.
What may be upsetting for a lot of people is the fact that MS has not stated either way, so all are left in limbo wondering what is to be next. All in all, it is a massive change for many to cope with, especially with the addition of the Start Screen and All Apps vs the Start Menu.
Correct me if I'm wrong > Many of us in the pre-RTM days opened up some of the Store apps only to be disappointed either by their use and/or stability. It was not a good "first impression". Admittedly I think they really stunk at first, but I found that with time via updates they became rather useable with added features and in stability. I am now using at least a half dozen of them on a daily basis and find them very useful.
Anywho, I'll challenge those who did not have a good "first impression" to go back and try them again. I think one needs to learn the whole system, including the Store apps, to rightfully evaluate and judge the system. I'm speaking in today's condition, not yesterday's, especially with the release of 8.1 with its many configuration options.
When I'm using my Vz/Android smart phone, I enter a walled-garden system. I do not own any of the Apple products, but I know some that do and from what I read one enters a walled-garden system. I would imagine it's the same with other systems. They are all swaying/pushing us to use their products and/or services.
Therefore > Welcome to the new way of the > walled-garden > touch-centric > mobile/fixed > cloud-centric > service-oriented means of computing. I believe this is the direction MS is moving in as I see they all are.
So as djsigma stated > If you don't like any or all of it and you can't configure it the way you want it to be, then I suggest that you not support it and move on. It seems like a waste of time to me. But, hey > that's just me.
I don't understand the correlation. The desktop is an app - OK - but that means that they are going to get rid of that particular app?
Right, but do you really expect them to lay out a long term vision of the future right now? Of course not. Their vision is not set in stone even in the short term, as you can see by the return of the Start button in 8.1. But we're not just talking about the removal/return of a simple button here. We're talking about the potential removal of the entire desktop, which would instantly make all desktop software going back many years unusable.HiippsieGypsie said:
A walled garden only gets you so far. It has certain advantages to the end user, such as security and stability, but it reduces choice. The beauty of open systems is that I can write a piece of software, upload it, and you can download and run it on your machine. With a desktop operating system, that is vital functionality for a large number of people, including being vital to enterprise.HippsieGypsie said:
I do think people are basing their vision of the future on what the Metro part of Windows 8 or 8.1 is like now, so they think "imagine if Windows 9 was just this, but without the desktop". That would be awful, but that's not going to happen. Over time, the UI and usability quirks will be smoothed out, new features will be added, more apps will be added to the store that cater to people's needs and those apps will improve over time too, but even when we get to a point where there are people who will happily use only Metro apps, there will still be a need for the desktop. At worst, I see it becoming an optional component.
Rickkins
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Thing is, I've never been a "turn the other cheek" kinda guy. If there's an issue that disturbs me, I'll voice my opinion, pushing until it's over... one way or the other.
Think of the song just before the one where you got your nick from.(which I'm assuming is from the song "Going Mobile")
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Microsoft Is Still Obsessed with the Windows 8.1 Start ButtonWhile the video presented the key features of the new tablet, a Start Menu also showed up in the left corner of the screen all of a sudden. It was a Start Menu appbringing the familiar feature back on Windows 8. In an official Microsoft video, that is.
The company was quick
But what this unfortunate incident is actually showing is that some Microsoft employees do not really agree with the company’s new direction.
Since the Softies themselves don’t like the 8.1 Start button and turn to third-party Start Menu app, why shouldn’t we?
I don't think what you're saying really adds anything to the discussion though, because you are saying "imagine this horrible future!" and I'm saying "but it probably won't be that horrible!". What else is there to say? I prefer to talk about things that actually exist and if we're talking about an evaluation of 8.1, which is what the thread is about after all, then installing Start8 (or whatever) on 8.1 gives you a user experience that is close to identical to working on the desktop with a Windows 7 machine. Problem solved.
I believe this thread started out about Windows Secrets' evaluation of Windows 8 (or 8.1), which I wanted to know about.
Pardon me for saying something that may put me in the same category, but it seems to me that this thread has degenerated into what I'd call a "schoolyard bully" contest. i.e. "I can be a bigger bully than you can and leave my opponents lying bleeding in the grass better than you can."
I don't know why I keep coming back to read this particular thread when I get a notification . . . I guess I keep hoping to actually get Windows 8 information, but it's become too hard to find between all the other stuff. . .
Rickkins
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Clearly, I was responding to Hippie Gypsie.
Rickkins
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I hope I don't come across that way, it is not my intent.(but I do admit that I do enjoy a spirited exchange of viewpoints)
I really couldn't tell you, Rickkins, because I've long since stopped reading "who said what to whom". I simply attempt to pick any "jewels" from the "mud" and go on about my way.
BTW, spirited is one thing, but outright insults are another. And not backing down from an argument for the sake of not backing down is another.
I believe we're all here for the same thing; either to give or get information. I'd just like to see us get back on track.
Debate is a good thing; argument for the sake of argument is not.
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Yeah.. but you are missing the point. I too have always run 3rd party software to mount ISO files, etc... Not a big deal.. I typically run 3rd party antivirus as well, and pdf reader, etc.. I just do not like having to run 3rd party apps that affect the way the gui functions. I have never been a fan of these, and have had poor experiences with them in the past. Things like stardock, fences, and windows themes etc, that are 3rd party apps that alter the look and feel of windows, just don't sit well with me. I just don't like running them.
And here.. you are missing the point entirely, which is not surprising because there seems to be an infection of this running around these boards. I should not have to install a 3rd party app to do this. Plane and simple. The choice should have been there all along. The start screen is just no better than the start menu on a desktop PC. If you took a poll of 100 users, you will never hear otherwise unless your poll is taken in Redmond WA. Have you looked at the all apps menu lately. It is hard to find anything on it. The fact that folks think it is better, and are honest about it, blows me away. And before people get busy telling me all the little workarounds available such as just typing what you want, pinning to desktop etc.. please know, that these are not valuable solutions, nor are they anything new. They were there before as an option as well.. but for those of us who want to click on the start menu and find our way to our app with the mouse, this is hands down harder with the start screen.. And all your suggestions are just workarounds..
I work in IT. I provide workarounds all day long. They are just that.. workarounds... temp fixes until a permanent solution can be found. We don't have one of those here. I am going to bow out of this convo from here. Talks like this are better had in person, but the problem is, I still cannot find anyone to talk with face to face who actually likes the new Start screen. No one. And it has been over a year. I manage 45 other engineers. No one..!!
So.. for those of you in the minority, who actually like the start screen.. Good for you!! Quit trying to convince the rest of us, many of whom have been using it for quite a while now, of how much better it is. Personally, I would have welcomed an OS that had both the start button which lead to menu, and the ability to move the mouse all the way into the corner to access the start screen. Then you have the best of both worlds.. But now I am just ranting..
But if you do, does it solve your problem?
Is it? Here's a screenshot of mine: -musiclover7 said:
http://i.imgur.com/ar6YBRe.jpg
I have no difficulty finding anything I want. Why would I? The All Apps screen is an always-expanded Start menu, but the fact that it's always-expanded means I can see everything and open anything with 1 click - it's faster for me. If you're digging through nested folders in the Start menu looking for what you want, don't tell me that your way is just as fast - it's not. That just leaves you with the "it takes attention away!" argument, but we've already covered that.
At the end of the day though, if you're not happy with Windows 8, yet you're not going to install a piece of software that will solve your biggest gripe (and there are several choices), you only have yourself to blame. Personally, if I have a problem and I know there's a solution, I use it, rather than not using it and then moaning for over a year that my problem should be solvable a different way, but that's just me.
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Not really. Your point is that you don't like the start menu, and you'll make up excuse after excuse to justify your personal preference.
You don't like running them for imaginary reasons. Yes, in the very olden days, Windows blinds and what not did not work very well. But ever since Windows XP, Microsoft has actually implemented a theming API that Stardock and what not use to do their UI changes. This is the *EXACT SAME* API that Microsoft themselves use to them XP, Vista, 7 and 8.x. There is literally no difference in performance, robustness, or "how well it works" between these UI Themes and the ones that ship with windows.
In other words, it doesn't matter if your reasons are real or imaginary, you want what you want. The part you seem to miss is that Windows is *Microsoft's* software. They can do whatever they want with it, and you have *zero* rights to demand they do otherwise. Your only right is to vote with your wallet, by not purchasing it if you don't like it. That's it. Just like if you don't like the Toyota Prius, you just don't buy it. That doesn't give you the right to demand they make the Prius look like a Camry.
Microsoft can do whatever they want. It's their product. They own the copyright. It's their intellectual property. So saying "I shouldn't have to..." is really missing the point. And the point is, if you want Windows to be something other than what it is, then yes.. you *DO* have to...
Why? Why should it have been there all along? Because you said so? I say differently. Which of us wins? Neither, because Microsoft's opinion is the only choice that wins. If they choose to listen to you, great... but clearly they can't listen to everyone. Because people have contradictory opinions. And believe it or not, no.. not everyone believes what you believe. Everyone you know may believe it, because you've given them their opinion from day one.
I find that users tend to take on the opinions of the technical people that help them. When I show users how easy it is to use Windows 8, they love it. They think it's logical, because i'm not constantly telling them how bad it is, and I show them all the nice features that help them in their day to day life. When you show people how easy it is to find things in the Start menu when you don't have a pre-conceived bad opinion of it, people learn really quickly how to use it and get on with their lives.
For what it's worth, Vista suffered from the exact same problem. Well, it had two problems. The first, was that Microsoft had bowed to Intel and hardware vendors to allow Vista to be shipped on machines that were too low spec for it. The second was that technical people kept bad mouthing it to users before they'd even used it, so that by time they did they already had a negative opinion. By SP1 the few real problems that Vista had were gone, yet people clung to the negative stereotype. Microsoft proved this by simply changing the theme and telling people it was a new version of Windows, and everyone loved it. It was called the Windows Mojave Experment. look it up.
I disagree, and for a lot of reasons. The start menu is difficult to maneuver if you have any kind of hand eye coordination problems. The start menu is too small, and condenses content into a tiny area of the screen, when you have a gigantic monitor to work with. You can't do something like Live tiles in the start menu. Like them or not, they have a purpose. And since Windows Vista/7 Gadgets are vulnerable to security exploits and unfixable, they're not a viable alternative (if you're using gadgets.. stop.. your system will eventually get owned because of them. They unsupported, even on Windows 7 and Vista and the only security patch for them disables them entirely).
The start page has real, provable benefits over the start menu for a lot of people. So claiming that the start menu is better is just personal preference. I'm not saying the start screen is perfect by any shape of the imagination. It's not, but it solves problems with the start menu.
If you took a poll of 100 users, 75 of them probably wouldn't care one way or another.. because they have no investment in a menu or a screen. They just start a few programs and they don't care how they do it. unless you got to them first to tell them how terrible it is.
Of the 25 remaining, 15 will be vehemently against it, and make up the same excuses you do. 10 will give it a fair shot, and 8 will probably find they like it much more. 2 will probably want to go back because they just can't change their ways, even though they tried.
First, how many of those engineers have actually used Windows 8? Second, how many of them formed their opinion after hearing you (or someone else) tell them how much it sucks? Third, I find that hard to believe, since out of everyone I know that uses Windows 8, most people either don't care one way or another, or like it. The few that don't like it are like you, set in their ways and refuse to change for any reason "I shouldn't have to" is the common refrain.
You're resentful that you have to do things differently with Windows 8, and you waste no opportunity to tell others about that. I get it. We all get it. The question is, why do you keep doing it? You have to know it won't change anything.
What I don't understand is how you can yell at us to stop trying to convince you that it's not as bad as you claim, yet you see nothing wrong with constantly telling us about how much it sucks. The only reason we're arguing with you is because you keep bringing it up. If you don't want us to argue with you about it, stop starting the argument.
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I'll post what I think via pictures (some of this may have been implemented previously:
Spelling words wrong doesn't matter - corrected
This one is a little strange, not sure I like this screen. After clicking the option you want from Searching, you may be brought here. It seems to give more internet searches than I need, and not as many local options that I might like. This is a redundant screen in my mind
This one is cool (might have trouble reading clearly). I can open tabs on IEapp from links in another app (say, view updates), and nothing closes. They both sit neatly, side-by-side, in the new half-screen view, and all links appear right there, and you can open a lot of them at once without constant switching.
I didn't like this one. When I switched to the desktop and came back to the previously mentioned screen, it got jumbled. Was hard to understand where to go from here, but I'm sure I'll learn in time. It was not as easy as selecting one of the three, they just kind of moved around.
Overall, I rate it an 8.5/10
Spelling words wrong doesn't matter - corrected
This one is a little strange, not sure I like this screen. After clicking the option you want from Searching, you may be brought here. It seems to give more internet searches than I need, and not as many local options that I might like. This is a redundant screen in my mind
This one is cool (might have trouble reading clearly). I can open tabs on IEapp from links in another app (say, view updates), and nothing closes. They both sit neatly, side-by-side, in the new half-screen view, and all links appear right there, and you can open a lot of them at once without constant switching.
I didn't like this one. When I switched to the desktop and came back to the previously mentioned screen, it got jumbled. Was hard to understand where to go from here, but I'm sure I'll learn in time. It was not as easy as selecting one of the three, they just kind of moved around.
Overall, I rate it an 8.5/10
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Overall, I rate it an 8.5/10
That's funny, that's the exact same rating people gave to Windows Mojave
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