Sound latency in live monitoring (with video)

Art Howard

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When plugging a microphone or instrument into the mic/line input of my new Windows 8.1 computer, there is a 1/8 or 1/16 note lag in the sound coming through my desktop speakers/headphones. Recording is fine, I'm talking about live monitoring.

I've used an XP computer for several years to record multi-track music, and also to record Skype conversations for a podcast. My mixer has always been plugged into the line in of the factory sound card, and monitored either with my desktop speakers or by plugging headphones into the desktop speakers, no problem.

Now I've been forced to upgrade to Windows 8.1, and the basic function of plugging a mic into an input jack and hearing myself doesn't work. This goes for analog and USB gear. There are HUNDREDS of pages on the Internet about this, since Windows 7, with no solutions.

Here is a video I made detailing the problem, and demonstrating how any proposed fix (update drivers, use the sound card software, try USB, use high performance power settings) hasn't worked.

If this can't be fixed in the next couple of days, this thing is going back to Best Buy!

[video=youtube;d7sc-kl7bf0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7sc-kl7bf0[/video]
 

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My sound drivers by default say "IDT High Definition Audio Codec." I also tried the Audigy Sound Blaster FX card, but it made no difference. The posts I read always refer to Realtek. The old XP computer has Realtek. Can I install Realtek on my 8.1 machine? Or if I remove the Sound Blaster card and uninstall the IDT codec, will that make some hidden Realtek driver take over?
 

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RealTek is one audio chip manufacturer (and probably the most used). If yours has IDT (formerly called SigmaTel in older PC's) then it has an IDT audio chip on the motherboard. You are stuck with whatever the vendor has on the motherboard - for internal audio. You have to use the driver for whatever hardware you have. You can use a USB connected sound audio unit instead of the IDT. There is everything from what I mentioned on your Win 7 forum post to SoundBlaster USB devices and several other vendor PC types.
 

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I got the Focusrite. Now for $153 in addition to what I already spent on the PC, I've got a pale imitation of what XP could do right out of the box.

I'm really not satisfied with the Focusrite's performance next to what I got by default with XP, either. I've got a good mind to take this hunk of excrement PC back to Best Buy.
 

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To each his own. My Win 7/Win 8.1 systems work better than Win XP did for my recording studio. For my PC audio, my RealTek integrated audio works as good (and in some cases better) than a SoundBlaster sound card did in XP.

Looks like you are stuck with XP or possibly a MAC, since Win7/Win8 do not work as you want.
 

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    16 Gb G Skill TridentZ DDR4 3400
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    RealTek Integrated
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    Sonar Platinum 64 bit recording studio software with MOTU 896Mk3 Hybrid recording interface unit.
I had the very same annoying echo / delay, however on completely different hardware.

But I think the problem is not the hardware, but the Windows Audio Mixer in Windows Vista, 7, 8.

The standard mixer in Windows XP was easy to use, because it showed all the hardware. If something didn't work, you simply fiddled with the various sliders until it worked.

With the new mixer in Vista/7/8, MS tries to be smart and shows only what they think you might need ..
As usually, when they try to be smarter than the user, they fail miserably .. :p

PowerMixer from ActualSolutions is a mixer program in the spirit of the good old XP mixer, plus some nice bells and whistles. You can get a trial version here: Windows volume control replacement - Power Mixer .

1) Where does the delay / echo come from:

If you activate the "Listen to this device" on the properties page of an audio input, the analog audio input will be digitized. That digitized signal is then routed to the output device(s), where is converted back to an analog signal.

This happens by software in the Windows Audio software, not in hardware !

Because converting from analog to digital and then back to analog takes time, the original signal is delayed.

Turn off the "Listen to this device" option to get rid of the delayed signal.

2) But then I can't hear the original signal anymore ?!?

Yes, but you still see the LEDs flicker in the "Recording devices" list. So its still coming in, just not getting out ..

Start the PowerMixer (link above) and check out the Tree Control that list all your audio devices with all their inputs and outputs.
There should be a node representing your Audio Card (or the audio chip on your mainboard). Below that, you should see two nodes, one for all output devices/connections, and another one for all input devices/connections.

Depending on your sound card/chip, the input devices will be listed under both the output node and the input node. Select the input device (where your external mixer and microphone are connected) that is listed under the output node and pull up its slider. Now you should hear your original signal without delay.

What you hear now is the direct analog signal routed directly from analog input to analog output - an therefore without delay.

This corresponds to the "Direct Monitoring" option of external audio interfaces.

3) Can I do this without PowerMixer ?

Depends on the driver of your sound card/chip. In my Realtek driver all inputs have a "Recording Volume" slider and a second "Playback Volume" slider as well. That second playback slider is the one you need. Maybe it has a different name in your driver or its missing.

4) Can I do this with the standard Vista/7/8 mixer ?

I have searched up and down all property pages and stuff in the standard Windows Audio software, but haven't found a way.

Update: See mancman's post with screenshots on page two. He found a way.

Maybe it depends on the audio card/chip specific driver. If the hardware doesn't support the direct routing path in hardware, the software can't do very much about it ..

As far as I know, all Realtek chips do support direct monitoring on the hardware level.

5) Another tip

On the "Recording devices" page of the Windows Sound Control Panel, right click the list. Activate the options "Show disabled devices" and "Show disconnected devices". Maybe a new input device will appear, on my PC it is called "Stereo Mix". This corresponds to the "What you hear" virtual input device on Creative Soundblaster audio cards. Maybe that "device" helps somehow ..

Do you still have the original computer where you had this problem ? Or have you already bought another one ?

Many PCs and laptops use the Realtek audio chips as on-board sound card. All these chips allow "jack retasking", which means you can redefine the function of all input and output connections. On my previous PC, I could redefine all six output connectors on the rear panel as Line-In connectors and use the chip as a 12 channel mono or 6 channel stereo mixer. On my new PC, only some connectors allow redefinition. The chip itself would still allow it for all, but the mainboard electronics between chip and connectors do not !!

Realtek has several reference designs for the computer manufacturers. They can save a few cent, if they stick to a simpler design that only allows 7.1 output for DVD playback. Cutting the nice jack retasking feature also makes the computer more idiot proof - but also less flexible.

However, some computer manufacturers still use the more complex reference design, which allows full retasking. Check out the documentation of your new computer. The usual default is retaskable front panel connectors and non-retaskable rear panel connectors, but some allow retasking of more or even all connectors.

Of course, an external Audio Interface is the best option - I am still not decided between MOTU AudioExpress, FocusRite Scarlett 18i8, FocusRite Saffire 24 Pro DSP, or the upcoming Focusrite Saffire 26 (which is still top secret, except for dealers) ..
 
Last edited:

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    W7 Ultimate SP1 x64 + W8.1 Enterprise x64
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    n/a (self assembled)
    CPU
    Intel i7-4771
    Motherboard
    Asus Z87-Pro
    Memory
    32 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    none (iGPU)
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC 1150 (on board)
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    several
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@ Millka

The consensus is that only a mobo with a Realtek audio chip gives input monitoring. Can you provide proof (screenshots, YouTube video etc) showing input monitoring on a non Realtek board using the software you mentioned.
 

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  • OS
    Windows 7 Ultimate x64
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    self build
    CPU
    i7-2600K
    Motherboard
    MSI Z68A-GD80
    Memory
    Mushkin 8GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    ATI Radeon HD5770
    Sound Card
    onboard
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    dual 27"
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    2x 1920*1080p
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@ Millka

The consensus is that only a mobo with a Realtek audio chip gives input monitoring. Can you provide proof (screenshots, YouTube video etc) showing input monitoring on a non Realtek board using the software you mentioned.

No. The consensus is that Realtek supports direct monitoring.

I don't know which other sound cards/chips support direct monitoring and which do not.

The important information in my post is
- even if the hardware supports direct monitoring, it might be hard to find it,
- give some hints where to find it,
- explain where the second delayed audio stream comes from and why, and how to get rid of it.

However, since Art experienced an echo effect and demonstrates it in his video, he is hearing two streams.
One is delayed. Its the stream routed through software.
The other one is not delayed (or at least less delayed). That is most likely the direct monitoring stream, routed through hardware.

So Art's video is the proof youre asking for.
 

My Computer

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    W7 Ultimate SP1 x64 + W8.1 Enterprise x64
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    CPU
    Intel i7-4771
    Motherboard
    Asus Z87-Pro
    Memory
    32 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    none (iGPU)
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC 1150 (on board)
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Thanks, MillKa. You clearly truly "get" the problem. Yes, I still have the PC. I tried the Power Mixer software, and unfortunately it just rearranged the same thing I see in Windows into a different format with the same result. All of the available sliders are at 100%, but I still hear nothing.

Previously I also tried a Creative Sound Blaster Audigy FX card, as well as a the SRS audio interface built into the computer, and same result: their interfaces don't allow monitoring of input audio without clicking a "listen to this device" box that works just like the Windows one -- echo.

So I spent another $153 and bought a Focusrite 2i2 USB interface, which "solved" the problem. Now I can at least hear my input, but I have to go through switching audio devices in Windows when I want to go from monitoring from the Focusrite to using my PC speakers, or mixing in ASIO to WDM, etc. With the old XP, all of this was a breeze!

Even with stereos we had back in 1980, and past computers with 95, 98, ME and XP, you could plug in a mic and hear yourself. I never saw this coming, and can't believe Hewlett-Packard is putting out computers with mic and line in jacks that are useless! What if you're a grandma or soldier who just wants to plug in a mic to talk to family but isn't up for figuring out digital audio and buying a $150 device?

Until the manufacturers get their act back together on this, this one will never be marked "solved," but thanks for the input, everyone.
 

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Hi Art,

can you post a screenshot of the Tree Control in PowerMixer ?
Make sure that all audio devices are listed: In PowerMixer, open Options, click the Control tab and set the checkmark on all nodes.

I am 99 percent sure, that your problem is just a software problem, because in your video I can hear both streams.

And some screenshot of the hardware specific audio driver might be helpful also ..
 

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  • OS
    W7 Ultimate SP1 x64 + W8.1 Enterprise x64
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    n/a (self assembled)
    CPU
    Intel i7-4771
    Motherboard
    Asus Z87-Pro
    Memory
    32 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    none (iGPU)
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC 1150 (on board)
    Browser
    several
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- even if the hardware supports direct monitoring, it might be hard to find it,

not at all hard to find the i/p sliders on a board with Realtek

01.JPG

02.JPG
 

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  • OS
    Windows 7 Ultimate x64
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    self build
    CPU
    i7-2600K
    Motherboard
    MSI Z68A-GD80
    Memory
    Mushkin 8GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    ATI Radeon HD5770
    Sound Card
    onboard
    Monitor(s) Displays
    dual 27"
    Screen Resolution
    2x 1920*1080p
    Hard Drives
    3x Seagate 2TB
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.. not at all hard to find the i/p sliders on a board with Realtek ..

Those inputs sliders are only visible on the Property page of the rear panel green connector (Speaker / Headphone).

They are not visible on the 2nd analog output (front panel green connector).
They are not visible on any of the digital outputs (HDMI, DVI, TOSLINK, COAX).

If the 2nd analog output is not used, the front panel green connector should show them to, cause front and rear green are the same in that configuration.

Since Art is using slightly better equipment than the average gamer or DVD playing user, he might have used one of the better quality digital outputs, and so he wont be able to find these sliders.
 

My Computer

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  • OS
    W7 Ultimate SP1 x64 + W8.1 Enterprise x64
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    CPU
    Intel i7-4771
    Motherboard
    Asus Z87-Pro
    Memory
    32 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    none (iGPU)
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC 1150 (on board)
    Browser
    several
    Antivirus
    MS
It seems like the Dell computers are coming with the Realtek chips, while the Hewlett-Packards (like I have) come with something called IDT (formerly Sigma Tel) High Definition Audio CODEC, which doesn't feature nearly as many sliders. However I added a Creative Sound Blaster Audigy FX PCI-e card and get the same results as with the IDT -- only one or two sliders and no audio unless I click "listen to this device."

But now, onto a video of the Power Mixer!

[video=youtube_share;TAPIgWfH8K0]http://youtu.be/TAPIgWfH8K0[/video]
 

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.. But now, onto a video of the Power Mixer ..

.. scratching head ..

1)
In PowerMixer, below the Tree Control is a tiny darker grey line with a white triangle pointing upwards.
Click the triangle. Now the triangle should point downwards and you should see an Options button.
Click the Options button.
Select the Control page.
Now you should see all the nodes you already see in the main window of PowerMixer with a check mark - plus maybe some more without a checkmark - or not.
If you see more nodes/devices than in the main window, set the check mark to for all unchecked nodes.
That makes the visible in the main window too.

Do you see more nodes now or not ? If yes, please post a screenshot.

2)
Have you unhidden all hidden input / recording devices in the Windows Sound Control Panel ? (see my first post above)

3)
You got the FocusRite Scarlett 2i2 ?
Is the Direct Monitor switch on its front panel on ?
If yes, you should be able to hear yourself through the Scarletts headphone output without delay.
Does that work ?

4)
The delay is no problem when streaming over the net (e.g. in chat apps like Skype), cause sending the bits around the globe will delay them anyway.

5)
While doing your tests,
- Try to run some application that is capable of recording audio, e.g. Audacity ?
- Or some application that is capable of streaming audio over the net, e.g. Skype ?
 

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System One

  • OS
    W7 Ultimate SP1 x64 + W8.1 Enterprise x64
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    CPU
    Intel i7-4771
    Motherboard
    Asus Z87-Pro
    Memory
    32 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    none (iGPU)
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC 1150 (on board)
    Browser
    several
    Antivirus
    MS
Options showed the same things that the main tree showed.

I've tried Audacity and Skype with the line input, also. Things record in Audacity (and Cakewalk Home Studio) just fine, but I need to hear the raw input audio. When I'm podcasting I'm playing sound effects and clips in real time with an interview (over Skype), and when I'm playing guitar I have to hear what I'm playing over.

Skype doesn't pick up the microphone/line in audio at all.

When I use the Focusrite 2i2 with the Direct Monitor switch on, I can hear myself in headphones plugged into the Focusrite just fine. My issue there is why I had to buy a $150 extra piece of gear to do what my brand-new $530 computer should've been able to do out of the box?! And also, the Focusrite only works with Cakewalk in ASIO mode. When I want to create something in MIDI using WDM or MME, I have to change the mode, speaker outputs, etc. (But this is getting off track.)

powermixerscreen_zps60c449e2.jpg

Another question is why is it Joe Blows like us are having to dedicate time to figure this out, when HP, Sigma Tel/IDT and Microsoft have research labs that should have/should be sorting this stuff out?
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 8.1
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
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    2 TB
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    AMD Radeon A8
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My Computer

System One

  • OS
    W7 Ultimate SP1 x64 + W8.1 Enterprise x64
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    n/a (self assembled)
    CPU
    Intel i7-4771
    Motherboard
    Asus Z87-Pro
    Memory
    32 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    none (iGPU)
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC 1150 (on board)
    Browser
    several
    Antivirus
    MS
4)
The delay is no problem when streaming over the net (e.g. in chat apps like Skype), cause sending the bits around the globe will delay them anyway.

@ Art
I don't think this dude knows jack about computers
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 7 Ultimate x64
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    self build
    CPU
    i7-2600K
    Motherboard
    MSI Z68A-GD80
    Memory
    Mushkin 8GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    ATI Radeon HD5770
    Sound Card
    onboard
    Monitor(s) Displays
    dual 27"
    Screen Resolution
    2x 1920*1080p
    Hard Drives
    3x Seagate 2TB
    PSU
    Coolermaster GX750
    Cooling
    be quiet Dark Rock advanced
    Internet Speed
    60/15 Mbps
    Other Info
    Cinema 4D user
Weird - there are lots of nodes missing.
The IDT device is not listed at all.
I am pretty sure, that the Audigy has more than just one Speaker/Headphone out.

In PowerMixer, open the Options and go to the System page.
Check/turn on these options:
- Show disabled devices
- Show disconnected devices

Then go back to the Option/Controls page.
Are there more nodes now ? If yes, post some screenshots.

At least the IDT device (and hopefully some sub-devices) should be visible now.

I checked the Data Sheet of the IDT 92HD73E chip. It seems to have similar capabilities as the Realtek chips, but they don't mention direct monitoring.

An older TSI/IDT chip (STAC9200) for XP implements direct monitoring by an hardware path bypassing the A/D and D/A converters.
Doesn't help you much .. but maybe they have cut that feature in their newer chips.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    W7 Ultimate SP1 x64 + W8.1 Enterprise x64
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    n/a (self assembled)
    CPU
    Intel i7-4771
    Motherboard
    Asus Z87-Pro
    Memory
    32 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    none (iGPU)
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC 1150 (on board)
    Browser
    several
    Antivirus
    MS
4)
The delay is no problem when streaming over the net (e.g. in chat apps like Skype), cause sending the bits around the globe will delay them anyway.

@ Art
I don't think this dude knows jack about computers

Dear mancman,

congratulations for solving the problem of communication delays resulting from the speed of light limit.
I suggest you file a patent immediately and get filthy rich.
NASA will be extremely happy to get rid of the 20 minute delay when they remote control their stuff on Mars.
Someone in a certain building with five corners might be interested, too.

:roflmao:


.. just kidding ..
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    W7 Ultimate SP1 x64 + W8.1 Enterprise x64
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    n/a (self assembled)
    CPU
    Intel i7-4771
    Motherboard
    Asus Z87-Pro
    Memory
    32 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    none (iGPU)
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC 1150 (on board)
    Browser
    several
    Antivirus
    MS
Weird - there are lots of nodes missing.
The IDT device is not listed at all.
I think that's because I've got the Sound Blaster PCI-e card in, which automatically overrides/disables the IDT CODEC. I should probably remove the Sound Blaster to get accurate results for the IDT, but I had the same issue with either one.

Another thing I noticed was ASIO4ALL attaches itself to the Sound Blaster card, but wouldn't "see" the IDT High Def CODEC. That's another reason I'm keeping the Sound Blaster in.

I am pretty sure, that the Audigy has more than just one Speaker/Headphone out.
I got the second-cheapest one with basic inputs/outputs. I figure the plain Realtek card in my XP computer got the job done, so the $40 Sound Blaster should, too, no need to get the $80 or $120 model.

I checked the Data Sheet of the IDT 92HD73E chip. It seems to have similar capabilities as the Realtek chips, but they don't mention direct monitoring.

An older TSI/IDT chip (STAC9200) for XP implements direct monitoring by an hardware path bypassing the A/D and D/A converters. Doesn't help you much .. but maybe they have cut that feature in their newer chips.
I suspect IDT and maybe Sound Blaster, too, have removed that feature from their chips. Why I don't know. I wonder if it's got something to do with pirating?
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 8.1
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    Hewlett-Packard
    Memory
    2 TB
    Graphics Card(s)
    AMD Radeon A8
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Norton
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