Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


SSD File "Eraser" Needed ??

  1. #11


    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CountMike View Post
    Trim and GC are working delayed action, days may pass until data is erased that way, any other erasing works instantaneously. Number of writes is not much of a concern with newer SSD, they can take a lot of punishment.
    Trim can be activated using "Defragment and optimize Drives" or "Performance Optimization" on Samsung Magician or whatever software came with the SSD. Also "Unnecessary Writes" bad for both HDDs & SSDs. This B.S. with 35 writes isn't any better as once or twice(over written is over written). Just more scare ware sales pitch.
    HTG Explains: Why You Only Have to Wipe a Disk Once to Erase It
    It's all a matter of how much security you need, in extreme cases only physical destruction would do. That's what military and security agencies do.

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  2. #12



    Trying to Sith things out
    Bamberg Germany
    Posts : 2,290
    Windows 10 Pro 64 bit


    Operation[edit]

    The Trim command is designed to enable the operating system to notify the SSD which pages no longer contain valid data due to erases either by the user or operating system itself. During a delete operation, the OS will mark the sectors as free for new data and send a Trim command to the SSD to mark them as not containing valid data. After that the SSD knows not to preserve the contents of the block when writing a page, resulting in less write amplification with fewer writes to the flash, higher write speed, and increased drive life.
    Different SSDs implement the Trim command somewhat differently, so performance can vary.[3][8]
    Trim irreversibly deletes the data it affects; recovery of accidentally deleted data, as can often be successful on magnetic drives, is not possible.[14]
    Trim has been defined as a non-queued command by the T13 subcommittee, and consequently incurs massive execution penalty if used carelessly, e.g., if sent after each filesystem delete command. The non-queued nature of the command requires the driver to first finish any operation, issue the trim command, then resume normal commands. Trim can take a lot of time to complete depending on the firmware in the SSD and may even trigger a garbage collection cycle.[citation needed] This penalty can be minimized in solutions that periodically do a batched trim, rather than trimming upon every file deletion, by scheduling such batch jobs for times when system utilization is minimal. This Trim shortcoming has been overcome in Serial ATA revision 3.1 with the introduction of the Queued Trim Command.[16][17]
    A bit more on Trim.
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  3. #13


    Trim on my SSD haven't been triggered for 21 days now so if I haven't erased some files they would be still there ?
    SSDs are differently organized but HDDs are not so simple as it seams. There are two organizing systems on them too. Physical, as determined by FW and Logical as determined by OS and file system, data and it's position has to be recalculated every time a bit is read or written. Forensic programs work thru lo level format (FW ) to retrieve data not accessible by higher level (OS, file system, logical) formatting and file structure. Some data may also be moved to spare area (over-provisioning) that even mechanical HDD have and with thorough forensics can be at least partially retrieved. Data saving and retrieval services work on all those levels and are able to retrieve a lot of "lost" data even after multiple formattings and data damage. Takes a lot of time and effort though and that's why they are so expensive.
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  4. #14


    Posts : 454
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center


    Quote Originally Posted by CountMike View Post
    I don't see why files could not be secure erased/wiped on SSD same as on HDD. Those programs just overwrite files with zeroes or random bits and some you can set to do it multiple times. I tested AVG antivirus and it's secure delete and nothing was able to find erased files. Now maybe CIA or NSA or FBI would be able to do something but normal programs no.
    The Schneier page I linked to links to a paper that talks about the difficulty in secure erasing single files using HD-style techniques as well as securing erasing entire drives. Here's a brief overview of the same paper:

    Study: Nearly Impossible to Delete Data on SSDs

    As for accessing the data remnants following the HD-style methods, the authors said:

    Figure 2 shows the FPGA-based hardware we built to extract remnants. It cost $1000 to build, but a simpler, microcontroller-based version would cost as little as $200, and would require only a moderate amount of technical skill to construct.


    The paper was published in 2011. I haven't checked, but I would guess what they did is within the capabilities of commercial data recovery services.
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  5. #15



    Trying to Sith things out
    Bamberg Germany
    Posts : 2,290
    Windows 10 Pro 64 bit


    Quote Originally Posted by CountMike View Post
    Trim on my SSD haven't been triggered for 21 days now so if I haven't erased some files they would be still there ?
    SSDs are differently organized but HDDs are not so simple as it seams. There are two organizing systems on them too. Physical, as determined by FW and Logical as determined by OS and file system, data and it's position has to be recalculated every time a bit is read or written. Forensic programs work thru lo level format (FW ) to retrieve data not accessible by higher level (OS, file system, logical) formatting and file structure. Some data may also be moved to spare area (over-provisioning) that even mechanical HDD have and with thorough forensics can be at least partially retrieved. Data saving and retrieval services work on all those levels and are able to retrieve a lot of "lost" data even after multiple formattings and data damage. Takes a lot of time and effort though and that's why they are so expensive.
    My System triggers every day. And with wiping any drive that only gets the physical data. What about Registry keys that point to Users App Data folder or Windows Side by Side(WinSxS) metadata has also important info. Like you said Mike the only guarantee is destroy a HDD. But an SSD is different in that you only have to delete all partitions, then hook it up as a second internal and reformat, then force a trim.
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  6. #16


    Posts : 454
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center


    Quote Originally Posted by CountMike View Post
    SSDs are differently organized but HDDs are not so simple as it seams. There are two organizing systems on them too. Physical, as determined by FW and Logical as determined by OS and file system, data and it's position has to be recalculated every time a bit is read or written. Forensic programs work thru lo level format (FW ) to retrieve data not accessible by higher level (OS, file system, logical) formatting and file structure. Some data may also be moved to spare area (over-provisioning) that even mechanical HDD have and with thorough forensics can be at least partially retrieved.
    When you tell a HD to write to a given physical sector, it writes to that sector. An HD remaps a reserved sector to take the place of the original sector only if it determines the latter is failing. SSDs don't work like that. You tell an SSD to write to a specific sector, and it can't, because it has to erase it first, so it chooses a different sector. However, it provides the illusion of writing to it by maintaining a mapping table for the entire drive, and its ordinary operation is similar to what an HD does only under exceptional circumstances.
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  7. #17


    Posts : 1,875
    Windows 10 Pro Prieview x64


    Seems turning on bitlocker is far easier and more reliable. No-one can retrieve anything and you can always forget and destroy the keys if you feel the need to sanitise the drive.
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  8. #18


    Quote Originally Posted by adamf View Post
    Seems turning on bitlocker is far easier and more reliable. No-one can retrieve anything and you can always forget and destroy the keys if you feel the need to sanitise the drive.
    Yes that is but it doesn't get rid of stuff and I also heard that certain agencies have "Master key" for it. Given enough computing power and time, any code could be broken anyway. Things that are destroyed can't come back and bite you. It all boils down to what and who from you want to keep something away. It's one thing to keep one girlfriend away from other one and another thing when you have to get rid of some security information although you can loose life or limb from either one.
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  9. #19


    Germany/Florida
    Posts : 4,514
    Vista and Win7


    Piling zeros on a SSD is not such a swift idea. It will produce a considerable slowdown for write operations. It is better to just delete the file and let Garbage Collection do it's job. For best results there it is good to halt the system in BIOS mode from time to time. Then the SSD has power but there is no write activity from the OS.
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  10. #20


    Posts : 31
    Windows 8.1


    https://www.bestvpn.com/blog/10314/l...and-anonymity/

    Don't know much about computers but if had a need for real security would have to find money for a system for like those at the link I guess.
    I will probably just use the OS "delete" function ....

    @WHS ........ what is the purpose in halting the systrem in BIOS mode ?? And how do you do it ?
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