Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums

Defrag on SSD

  1. #11


    Posts : 480
    Windows 8 Pro x64


    Shawn,

    What you're saying is correct... in theory :)

    1. I've researched this issue long enough to be certain that the bug exists and reproduces on all Windows 8 machines with default defrag and maintenance settings.

    2. My blog readers provided me with enough data to support this point, and modern SSDs are affected as well. I've got a lot of logs posted by my readers from different machines. Feel free to dig thru them, looking for Windows 8 PCs and finding proof (SSD models are easy to figure out from the logs).

    3. Please read my blog post carefully to see how the issue occurs (the commands you've posted are irrelevant to the issue). Then check the logged events on all machines available to you. The OS has to be installed for at least a month for the defrag to occur with reasonable probability and be reflected in the event log. But I assure you it will occur sooner or later ;)

    I can see if I can translate my CheckBootSpeed utility to English, so we can get more logs from EF readers. Or I can throw a quick PS script. But 8.1 Preview is too recent, so the logs are not likely to show the issue. But that doesn't mean the issue will not occur.


    brummyfan,
    The service start type is manual, so it starts only for defrag/optimization.
    Last edited by Vadikan; 04 Aug 2013 at 09:27. Reason: typo

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #12


    I have found two instances of defrag on the 26th July ( see the snip), I have excluded my SSD drive from Automatic maintenance but I couldn't find "ScheduledDefrag" in my Task schedule Library.
    Click image for larger version
    Click image for larger version
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #13


    Posts : 480
    Windows 8 Pro x64


    brummyfan, the screenshot is inconclusive. Please post the text results of the PS command (copy/paste from the window):
    Code:
    Get-EventLog -LogName Application -Source "microsoft-windows-defrag" | sort timegenerated -desc | fl timegenerated, message
    ScheduledDefrag is in the Task Scheduler: Library - Microsoft - Windows - Defrag. I see it in 8.1.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #14


    Thanks, I found the "ScheduledDefrag", text results attached.
    Click image for larger version
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  5. #15


    Posts : 480
    Windows 8 Pro x64


    Thanks for the screenshot. I see that the C drive gets re-trimmed and defragged on 26/07/2013 along with System Reserved. If C is SSD, then there you go.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #16


    Orbiting the Moon
    Posts : 2,975
    Windows 10 x64


    I see that as well...
    Click image for larger version
    C: and recovery are the SSD here.

    There are a few lines that mention a defragmentation.

    Do we really have proof it really defragged? Or the bug consists in just displaying the message of a defragmentation after the trim just happened?

    Just in case, I've disabled the automatic optimization for C: and recovery until I find out more about this.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #17


    Orbiting the Moon
    Posts : 2,975
    Windows 10 x64


    Well, we can narrow it down at least.

    After manually "defragging" C: with a command as described in Shawn's post, the event report shows that C: was successfully trimmed.
    There is nothing mentioned about a defragmentation.
    All well...

    The messages of defragmentation on SSD's seem to be noted after an automatic optimization and not a manual triggered one.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #18


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Hi there
    Well after using SSD's for around TWO YEARS now - I've never bothered -- and I certainly haven't notice any degradation of SSD performance -- and even if there is it's so minute that I haven't noticed it.

    Also is worrying about eventually having to replace an 85 USD device worth many HOURS of your time in what is certainly an issue that you doesn't have a definitive solution -- The firmware in the SSD these days will stop it being damaged in any case so the OS itself might be issuing commands but it doesn't mean that the actual SSD is carrying out the commands in the same way that a Spinner would do. Without taking the SSD apart , mounting it on to an Engineering Test Bench and putting a "Datascope" on it to see what the device is physically doing we can't prove what's happening internally to the device one way or another.

    Certainly people haven't been reporting failures of SSD's (OF THE LATEST GENERATION) in any large volumes --and there are enough of them out there now for these to be considered as mainstream devices.

    The latest generation of SSD's are more reliable than spinners -- these days the probable MBTF (Mean time before Failure) is likely to be about as long as the projected life of the SUN. !!

    Early generations of SSD's are totally another matter - the hardware was not designed as it is now and you cannot extrapolate any results from those early SSD's to the new ones.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #19


    Posts : 480
    Windows 8 Pro x64


    Hi Hopachi,

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopachi View Post
    Do we really have proof it really defragged? Or the bug consists in just displaying the message of a defragmentation after the trim just happened?
    Certainly, these are the first questions that come to any skeptical mind. Well, you can't get inside the drive to see what actually happens :) But I think that the proof I've established is pretty conclusive:

    1. Event log entries. When it says defrag, it means defrag. Especially, since re-trim is recorded separately.

    2. Defrag.exe reports. It shows 10% or more defrag before and 0% after. TRIM doesn't cause that.

    3. Visual observation. If you're patient enough to reproduce the issue, you'll see five defrag passes in dfrgui. TRIM doesn't take that long, and displays different messages.

    4. Faulty behavior under maintenance mode only. You can't make defrag.exe or dfrgui.exe defragment SSD. Only the ScheduledDefrag task can when launched during maintenance, whether manual or automatic. This task doesn't run otherwise under normal conditions. You can launch it manually, and it'll cause the issue under the conditions described in my post.

    When I was reproducing it for MS Connect, I've enabled Task Scheduled logs and clearly established that the issue occurs during automatic maintenance (in addition to manual task start).

    It's hard to believe, but it is defrag :) The workaround provided works just fine for those who want to be on the safe side. Even if MSFT releases a patch, the workaround still stands.


    Hi Jimbo,

    I don't understand your points. First, you CapsLock-stated that Windows 8 does not defrag SSD. This turns out wrong.

    Now you're saying that you haven't noticed any performance impact. Yeah, but I'm not saying that a monthly defrag causes serious problems. It's just unnecessary, and should be avoided.


    All,

    As promised, check out CheckBootSpeed 2.0 EN (Beta). The pack makes it easier to collect all diagnostics info.

    Vadim
    Last edited by Vadikan; 04 Aug 2013 at 14:02. Reason: typo fixed
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #20


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Hi there
    What I'm saying is that even IF the OS issues a defrag command what does the SSD actually do -- there aren't any "Classical sectors" etc to physically jig around so my point is still that to actually SEE what the SSD does is to open it up and put a datascope on it when Windows issues the command. There's quite a lot of intelligence built into the SSD controller itself so it will just ignore HDD commands that can't be executed because of the physical hardware design. You need to see what the HARDWARE is actually doing here -- All windows can do is issue the I/O and wait for the device to signal it's done it.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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