Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


I love embedded Oem keys

  1. #11


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
    Was able to take a Dell copy of Windows 8, make an uefi bootable usb key, install onto my Dell, and also onto some acers in my office. It used the embedded keys each time, gave me 8 pro where appropriate, and 8 standard when appropriate. No hassles, activated immediately, no calls to robo activation at Microsoft. Good times.

    Hi there
    I HATE to be the "Fifth player" in a String quartet here -- but I've seen in China how BIOS's are being "Cloned" -- so this so called anti piracy measure is failing at the first hurdle.

    You don't even need to remove the BIOS from your machine -- it can be flashed easily in any number of ways too.

    I was offered flashing software with a load of keys (100) in a Bar in Shanghai recently for around 5 USD -- so this stuff is already "Out in the Wild".

    My take on this is that embedded BIOS keys will end in tears. As the take up of W8 is still relatively small and the embedded protected Bios numbers even smaller then this Piracy isn't yet perceived as a problem -- but if Ms goes down this road -- Watch this space.

    A better way IMO to protect the OS is for EVERY processor to have a UNIQUE GUID (or identifier) and the BIOS at start up would do a READ PROCESSOR GUID instruction. (GUID - 32 digit alpha numeric code -- would take longer than the lifetime of the UNIVERSE to use all possible combinations -- GUID could also be used for unique social security numbers, passports etc etc).

    Then a simple query to the licensing server -- one to one relationship between CPU GUID and the Serial number licensed would check whether copy was pirated or the original windows. A primary school child could probably develop the query to check GUID against serial number.

    Cloning a BIOS is one thing - but cloning a processor with the SAME GUID is totally another ballgame and costs would be of a different order of magnitude to cloning a BIOS.

    Some people must live quite "Sheltered lives" if they don't realize how easy it is to pirate this stuff. Ms need to get their act together on this one and possibly send some of their developers to "More seedier parts of the world" to understand what they are up against.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    lol OA 3.0 is still very secure compared to old oem activation. All windows 8 oem systems use
    a unique product key in msdm table and unique hw hash.

    More about OA 3.0 activation

    Windows 8 preinstalled licenses, AKA OA2.2 and OA3.0

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #12


    Posts : 2,156
    Win7 Ult on DIY; Win8 Pro on MBP/Parallels; Win7 Ult on MBP/Boot Camp; Win7 Ult/Win8 Pro on HP


    Agreed. I never though the embedded keys would do much to stop piracy. We can't even protect our electrical grid, government sites, business sites. etc.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #13


    Hafnarfjörđur IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by woot332 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
    Was able to take a Dell copy of Windows 8, make an uefi bootable usb key, install onto my Dell, and also onto some acers in my office. It used the embedded keys each time, gave me 8 pro where appropriate, and 8 standard when appropriate. No hassles, activated immediately, no calls to robo activation at Microsoft. Good times.

    Hi there
    I HATE to be the "Fifth player" in a String quartet here -- but I've seen in China how BIOS's are being "Cloned" -- so this so called anti piracy measure is failing at the first hurdle.

    You don't even need to remove the BIOS from your machine -- it can be flashed easily in any number of ways too.

    I was offered flashing software with a load of keys (100) in a Bar in Shanghai recently for around 5 USD -- so this stuff is already "Out in the Wild".

    My take on this is that embedded BIOS keys will end in tears. As the take up of W8 is still relatively small and the embedded protected Bios numbers even smaller then this Piracy isn't yet perceived as a problem -- but if Ms goes down this road -- Watch this space.

    A better way IMO to protect the OS is for EVERY processor to have a UNIQUE GUID (or identifier) and the BIOS at start up would do a READ PROCESSOR GUID instruction. (GUID - 32 digit alpha numeric code -- would take longer than the lifetime of the UNIVERSE to use all possible combinations -- GUID could also be used for unique social security numbers, passports etc etc).

    Then a simple query to the licensing server -- one to one relationship between CPU GUID and the Serial number licensed would check whether copy was pirated or the original windows. A primary school child could probably develop the query to check GUID against serial number.

    Cloning a BIOS is one thing - but cloning a processor with the SAME GUID is totally another ballgame and costs would be of a different order of magnitude to cloning a BIOS.

    Some people must live quite "Sheltered lives" if they don't realize how easy it is to pirate this stuff. Ms need to get their act together on this one and possibly send some of their developers to "More seedier parts of the world" to understand what they are up against.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    lol OA 3.0 is still very secure compared to old oem activation. All windows 8 oem systems use
    a unique product key in msdm table and unique hw hash.

    More about OA 3.0 activation

    Windows 8 preinstalled licenses, AKA OA2.2 and OA3.0

    Hi there
    YOU'VE MISUNDERSTOOD THE POST.

    We aren't talking about KEYGENS here -- it doesn't matter what the REAL key is -- this is the KEY that will be installed in a BIOS -- and it's the BIOS that is being replicated -- the Key is totally valid and all MS have is the OEM to whom the key was issued -- if the BIOS is cloned how does Ms know WHICH machine the W8 is being installed on.

    It's not the W8 that is being pirated it's the BIOS. !!!! (plus the other bits of the Hash). This believe me WORKS.

    Just sit for 15 mins in any "dodgy bar" in the French concession part of Shanghai -- Old town - the most interesting but the seedier part of town-- and you can see people arriving with hand held "EEPROM" stuff or BIOS flashers plus Windows. They certainly could manipulate hardware hashes or whatever without any trouble and the Windows all activated and passed any Genuine Validation checks.

    As a Westerner I was often approached for this "Service" but I gave my usual reply "I'm only here for the Beer" which actually was incredibly cheap and good.

    I think a good percentage are running THIS version of W8 over there without a problem. Costs just a few Yuan or about Two pints of beer from what I saw.

    They did manage to unlock my phone for me though so I could use a Chinese Sim while I was there -- but that's Kindergarten stuff for those guys. !!

    cheers
    jimbo
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails pirate.png  
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #14


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
    Was able to take a Dell copy of Windows 8, make an uefi bootable usb key, install onto my Dell, and also onto some acers in my office. It used the embedded keys each time, gave me 8 pro where appropriate, and 8 standard when appropriate. No hassles, activated immediately, no calls to robo activation at Microsoft. Good times.

    Hi there
    I HATE to be the "Fifth player" in a String quartet here -- but I've seen in China how BIOS's are being "Cloned" -- so this so called anti piracy measure is failing at the first hurdle.

    You don't even need to remove the BIOS from your machine -- it can be flashed easily in any number of ways too.

    I was offered flashing software with a load of keys (100) in a Bar in Shanghai recently for around 5 USD -- so this stuff is already "Out in the Wild".

    My take on this is that embedded BIOS keys will end in tears. As the take up of W8 is still relatively small and the embedded protected Bios numbers even smaller then this Piracy isn't yet perceived as a problem -- but if Ms goes down this road -- Watch this space.

    A better way IMO to protect the OS is for EVERY processor to have a UNIQUE GUID (or identifier) and the BIOS at start up would do a READ PROCESSOR GUID instruction. (GUID - 32 digit alpha numeric code -- would take longer than the lifetime of the UNIVERSE to use all possible combinations -- GUID could also be used for unique social security numbers, passports etc etc).

    Then a simple query to the licensing server -- one to one relationship between CPU GUID and the Serial number licensed would check whether copy was pirated or the original windows. A primary school child could probably develop the query to check GUID against serial number.

    Cloning a BIOS is one thing - but cloning a processor with the SAME GUID is totally another ballgame and costs would be of a different order of magnitude to cloning a BIOS.

    Some people must live quite "Sheltered lives" if they don't realize how easy it is to pirate this stuff. Ms need to get their act together on this one and possibly send some of their developers to "More seedier parts of the world" to understand what they are up against.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    That's what separates your common pirate from a career (I think that's what they're called) pirate. Your common pirate won't be cloning BIOS keys and such, they'll just look for the route of least resistance. Which I'm guessing in Windows 8, it's pretty difficult to do so over 7 since there are like, all sorts of built in features that if are tampered with, will screw things up and whatnot. Career pirates are usually in China or Russia, so if you don't hang around bars in those countries, embedded keys should be fine.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #15


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
    I am not excited about embedded keys because I feel it ended piracy.

    I am excited that as an IT guy with legit machines with Oem keys, it is drop dead simple to install, I don't need to enter a key, I don't have to call over the phone to reactivate.
    And this too, SOOOO much easier. I'm going to be reinstalling 8 on a laptop today or Tuesday. It's gotten to the point where the actual installing of Windows and activating isn't even a task, it's just meh. But a good meh.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #16


    Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts : 6,490
    Windows 10 Education 64 Bit


    It seems to me that even if you could clone the BIOS Microsoft will just blacklist the key as soon as it shows up as being used on more than one PC. Each key is unique to the PC instead of the one OEM key used on every PC by that manufacturer. It's fairly easy to mode a BIOS for OA 2.1 but I thought the embedded key for OA 3.0 was in a different part of the BIOS. In the section that is not altered when you update or flash the BIOS. It's essentially permanently embedded in the chip. I suppose you could clone the chip but I think Microsoft will still detect it, "eventually".
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #17


    Hafnarfjörđur IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by alphanumeric View Post
    It seems to me that even if you could clone the BIOS Microsoft will just blacklist the key as soon as it shows up as being used on more than one PC. Each key is unique to the PC instead of the one OEM key used on every PC by that manufacturer. It's fairly easy to mode a BIOS for OA 2.1 but I thought the embedded key for OA 3.0 was in a different part of the BIOS. In the section that is not altered when you update or flash the BIOS. It's essentially permanently embedded in the chip. I suppose you could clone the chip but I think Microsoft will still detect it, "eventually".
    Hi there.

    Why should it come up as a "Duplicate key". -- The Ms database will come up with the combination of BIOS + Key + Hardware hash.

    The Bios --any part of it can be cloned.-- The chip will either be write eraseable or write once and the write once method is not popular as it means BIOS could never get an update.

    If another activation is requested the database will just assume the original PC is being re-activated -- maybe the user installed some bad software and just wants to restore the image.

    What you DO need is some sort of Heuristic algorithm which spots if activations occur frequently from totally different parts of the world - but even here people travel or log on to servers that aren't physically located in the country they live in. - Probably also designing and developing software for monitoring a HUGE Data Base for this type of activity and having staff to analyze the results would certainly cost more than the current perceived level of this type of piracy.

    In the end the only near 100% solution -- not one I like BTW -- is to GIVE away Windows FREE and charge a subscription for absolutely everything else -- even IE explorer if necessary. Using things like hardware keys and hashes can always be hacked -- I'll bet on the net right now some of these closed referral only membership "Black Hacker Sites" have all sorts of details about Ms's activation algorithms etc.

    In the end unless you are using quantum computers it's not possible to be 100% secure. People will always find a way so the answer is to make the piracy totally not worthwhile any more.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #18


    Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts : 6,490
    Windows 10 Education 64 Bit


    It's not hard to make part of the BIOS write once and another section rewritable. You flash the rewritable part, the product code and hash code are in the write once section that is burned in at the factory. A lot of PC's these days have dual BIOS and flash recovery. I don't know, I would think that if you cloned a pc say even a couple of hundred times Microsoft would detect it. Seems like a lot of work to just do one or two PC's. It would be for me anyway as I don't have those type of skills.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #19


    Hafnarfjörđur IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Hi there
    even on a laptop it's not impossible to remove and replace the BIOS -- a home user wouldn't do it but for a few GBP you'd leave your laptop for say an hour at a place similar to those "Phone unlocking" businesses. For those with the correct hardware it's a simple process and I know for sure that for say 5 GBP plenty of people would be quite happy to get an "undetectable" pirate copy of Windows.

    It wouldn't be impossible in any case to flash the writeable part of the BIOS to create the correct Hash key and inhibit access to the non write part from executing either.

    For desktops / Mobos this is a real doddle to physically change the BIOS if you have decent Chip remover / inserter tool.

    Ms is definitely backing the wrong horse here in its attempts to stamp out piracy. Not only that - provided the key is a valid one ---there's plenty of "KMS License server simulators" around that prevent the OS from "Phoning Home" to Ms by converting it to an Enterprise Volume license which automatically will pass the genuine validation tests.

    Just look at OFFICE -- I think almost on any torrent site you care to look at this type of software is out in the wild -- Ms Office is the probably the most pirated piece of software on the planet -- no wonder Office 365 with the subscription model is where Ms wants to go.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #20


    Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts : 6,490
    Windows 10 Education 64 Bit


    OK, Jimbo, yeah Microsoft blew it, its all hopeless, why even bother trying. Yeah I'm being sarcastic but its not directed at you per say. Just the world we live in I guess. There is always somebody determined to try and get something for nothing and cheat the system. I'm not going to comment on this anymore, its likely something we shouldn't be discussing anyway.

    Cheers
    Kerry
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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