Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


My logic behind Microsoft's controversial decision: Removal of Start

  1. #91


    Posts : 158
    Windows 7


    What does this have to do with my post? I am talking about the context menu, which is when you click on an actual item. Then you can do operations with that "actual item that was clicked" - also called a "context".

    The menu in your screenshot is always the same. It is not context-sensitive.

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  2. #92


    Quote Originally Posted by FSeal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    It might seem very peculiar MS has removed the full start menu and replaced it with that truncated version.

    I wonder if anybody else has figured out why?

    That should generate a lot of hilarious responses.
    Although true, you'll probably find this funny -> Because they're going to get rid of the desktop altogether. Another good reason to justify my forecast -> The Guts menu and the Charms Bar. More reasons why one would not need a desktop. Also keep in mind the four-corner navigation. BTW The Guts Menu is actually a right click over the appearing miniature Start Screen when one points to the lower left corner.
    Hypsie. Please tell me where people are going to go to get work done if the desktop is removed? (Assuming Metro is not turned INTO a desktop).

    We NEED multiple monitors with 6, 8, 10 apps running at once and VISIBLE all time at a glance. Metro cannot do that. And until it does, the desktop CANNOT and WILL NOT be gotten rid of.

    The GUTS menu is nothing more than a horrible hack on the entire system because of the removal of the start menu in the first place. It shouldn't need to be there at all. Hacks on hacks...
    FSeal, please keep in mind that I have always sympathized with you Pros on this matter in my posts after I became aware of the problem. Have I not? In listening to you, others, and reading up on the subject, even experimenting on my own PC I understand the dilemma.

    To quote myself earlier:

    Please keep in mind that I think snapping and multi-pane on a single monitor and viewing multi-monitors will progress with time. Also, perhaps larger monitors will be needed for multi-panes. When one opens a Metro app it appears in a 'window", does it not?. What if one opens another app and has the option of snapping it next to the previous? Then continue as many times as one needs to be able to open all the apps as one needs as I have described above. Or any variation thereof. e.g. -> Two apps opened in there own separate "window" or two apps snapped together in a "window" and another two in another "window". Alt/Tab or finger-slide in touch between any combination, just as we do now. There will be endless combinations.
    When a user opens a program on the desktop in full screen what does it cover? The desktop, correct? It's hidden, correct? (Partially covered if the program window is opened minimized) We know the desktop is still there behind the program "window", for it is a "sticky" or main "Window" of the OS as we know it today. It wasn't always that way in early computing. That's what "Windows" is. A visual UI. Correct? We all personalized our desktop to suit our own needs, did we not?

    Now, the dilemma in 8 is the problem of snapping and multi-panes, is it not? If in time this problem is worked out, would that not solve the problem? Will one not be able to open as many productivity apps as one needs to work in? Whether it be in individual "windows", muti-panes, and/or multi-monitors?

    Also keep in mind that when one is in muti-pane view, one will be able to highlight or navigate to that pane individually to do there work there. Then navigate to another pane to do work there, and so on. It will be also true with multi-monitors. There will be endless combinations. Would this not be a better, more efficient way to produce work? Is it not all in front of one's view? Is this not the same way you performed work in earlier OSs that allowed it?

    I believe M$ will keep the desktop for you Pros to continue your work the way you are familiar with until all programs are written in the Metro/M$ app interface. I realize it will continue to be a pain in the butt for the Metro Screen keeps popping up when you want to remain on the desktop, but they will continue to support 7 for quite a long time to give them time to work out problems in 8 and for all to catch up on purchasing apps, which leads me to the next subject.

    We will all eventually have to purchase all the M$ apps through their store. Do I think this is fair or it is being forced upon us? Yes, in a sense. I'll have to throw away all my software that I use and purchase new apps. I'll whine looking at my bank account balance.

    But, I believe in the long run we will have a better way of computing.
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  3. #93


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lonewolf View Post
    Cool me terming it as the "Guts Menu" is holding....

    Crawfish said
    The pervasive use of hidden hotspots such as the one that invokes the new right-click system menu in Windows 8
    It isn't NEW that menu has been in all releases (DP, CP, and also RP).
    Someone has to call it something. I think it was brilliant for you to name it that for it is exactly that -> The guts of the Start Menu.
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  4. #94


    Posts : 993
    Windows 8 pro Retail


    *Nods* Thank You Hippsie Gypsie
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  5. #95


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    BTW The Guts Menu is actually a right click over the appearing miniature Start Screen when one points to the lower left corner.
    Quote Originally Posted by FSeal View Post
    The GUTS menu is nothing more than a horrible hack on the entire system because of the removal of the start menu in the first place. It shouldn't need to be there at all. Hacks on hacks..
    I love this menu, as it's the 1 thing that contains nearly everything that I use as a Systems Administrator or when i put on my Help Desk hat and visit a desk. I wish that smaller truncated menu was available in Windows 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Please keep in mind that I think snapping and multi-pane on a single monitor and viewing multi-monitors will progress with time.
    It really has to. The current implementation of only allowing 2 metro apps to share a single screen and having their snapped sizes dictated for me is really not useful.

    I've got a Windows 8 box setup at work and am using it as my main desktop computer to force myself to get used to Windows 8, and I do 98% of everything in the desktop.

    When people come by to check it out and see what it looks like, they are all dumbfounded by how limited the implementation of metro and the metro apps are. I usually let them drive and they try to figure out how to resize windows and are surprised to find they are either full screen, most of the screen, or a sliver of the screen...and that's it. Many actually think I am pulling their leg and joking with them, that this is how the system is designed out of the box. And many have said, well, I'm going to just disable that and use the classic option instead. And then I inform them there is no classic option without 3rd party tools and their jaws practically hit the floor. And that response has been unanimous.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    I believe M$ will keep the desktop for you Pros to continue your work the way you are familiar with until all programs are written in the Metro/M$ app interface.
    I don't think it's just the pros, or the enthusiasts, but really just about anybody who works with a Windows based computer for their job. The proliferation of multiple monitors on the enterprise desktop is proof of this...as people want/need more and more apps simultaneously open so they can work on more than 1 thing at once and keep an eye on something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    We will all eventually have to purchase all the M$ apps through their store. Do I think this is fair or it is being forced upon us? Yes, in a sense. I'll have to throw away all my software that I use and purchase new apps. I'll whine looking at my bank account balance.

    But, I believe in the long run we will have a better way of computing.
    I have concerns that this could also stiffle innovation and creativity. As we currently have with the Apple store, apps have to be submitted in certain ways, developed with certain tools, etc. People aren't free to design exactly what they want to accomplish their task, but they have to abide by the rules set forth by whomever governs the store. I would always want to retain my ability to buy outside 3rd party apps directly from vendors based on their functionality and meeting my business/personal needs.
    Last edited by pparks1; 27 Jul 2012 at 21:11.
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  6. #96


    @ pparks1

    Originally Posted by FSeal BTW The Guts Menu is actually a right click over the appearing miniature Start Screen when one points to the lower left corner. The GUTS menu is nothing more than a horrible hack on the entire system because of the removal of the start menu in the first place. It shouldn't need to be there at all. Hacks on hacks..
    Not to try and cause trouble, but the 1st sentence is a quote of mine. The 2nd is a quote of FSeal. If you produced the whole quote that way to point out where the guts menu is with my quote that's ok, but in the future please keep them separate.

    I love this menu, as it's the 1 thing that contains nearly everything that I use as a Systems Administrator or when i put on my Help Desk hat and visit a desk. I wish that smaller truncated menu was available in Windows 7.
    I'm glad to read there is at least one good thing you see in 8. I really am. Almost makes me wanna' think you're warming up to it.

    It really has to. The current implementation of only allowing 2 metro apps to share a single screen and having their snapped sizes dictated for me is really not useful.

    I've got a Windows 8 box setup at work and am using it as my main desktop computer to force myself to get used to Windows 8, and I do 98% of everything in the desktop.

    When people come by to check it out and see what it looks like, they are all dumbfounded by how limited the implementation of metro and the metro apps are. I usually let them drive and they try to figure out how to resize windows and are surprised to find they are either full screen, most of the screen, or a sliver of the screen...and that's it. Many actually think I am pulling their leg and joking with them, that this is how the system is designed out of the box. And many have said, well, I'm going to just disable that and use the classic option instead. And then I inform them there is no classic option without 3rd party tools and their jaws practically hit the floor. And that response has been unanimous.
    I agree. It absolutely has to be corrected in "Metro 8" for it to work and in the direction in which I think M$ has planned.

    You're speaking of the 1/3 - 2/3 view after snapping of apps. Is it fair to show people one flaw, although I realize it's a big one for you? I wonder what they would think after using 8 for as long some of have and gain all the knowledge of tutorials and posts of a forum such as this.

    I don't think it's just the pros, or the enthusiasts, but really just about anybody who works with a Windows based computer for their job. The proliferation of multiple monitors on the enterprise desktop is proof of this...as people want/need more and more apps simultaneously open so they can work on more than 1 thing at once and keep an eye on something else.
    Again, I agree. Like I've been stating, I think this will all be worked out in time, for time is the best healer of all. Some will just have to stick with 7 for a while.

    I have concerns that this could also stiffle innovation and creativity. As we currently have with the Apple store, apps have to be submitted in certain ways, developed with certain tools, etc. People aren't free to design exactly what they want to accomplish their task, but they have to abide by the rules set forth by whomever governs the store. I would always want to retain my ability to buy outside 3rd party apps directly from vendors based on their functionality and meeting my business/personal needs.
    You bet your doompa they will have to meet M$'s quality control. Apps will have to be written with quality in mind. I don't see a problem with this whatsoever. I expect that out of a product or I don't purchase it. How many people do you think go back to Walmart to buy an item that wore out to replace that same item they bought there originally just because the price is cheaper? I did when I was young until I learned the hard way. That's Walmart's game and they laugh when they're sticking profits into their mansions and on their way to pay dividends to their stockholders. So I've learned to initially shell out a few bucks more so as not to live in a false economy.

    Some app writers and I have been emailing back and forth to solve problems with their apps I installed from the store. One of the apps didn't open totally because, as it ended up, it didn't open fast enough to meet M$'s standard. That's how picky they are. The writer corrected the problem and it presently runs fine. A very fine quality app, too, I must say.

    Sorry. If things go the way I think M$ is headed with M$/Metro interface apps, you won't be able to load 3rd party programs unless they have them written in that interface and sold through the store. You'll have to go elsewhere for an OS. But, I wouldn't concern myself with the stifling of innovation or creativity. I'm quite sure it will happen. The use and results of programs will be the same. They will just be written in a different interface.

    Also, I think M$ has come a long way so far as the quality of there OSs and software themselves. They weren't exactly known for the most stable products for a while. User friendly -> Yes. Stability -> No. 7, I think, was the most stable of all. 8 seems to be as well.

    Lastly, I'm glad to see you've tweaked your profile. At least I now know we have a few things in common -> computers and billiards. I'll bet you're better at computers and I'm better at billiards.
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  7. #97


    Posts : 248
    Windows 8 RTM (Retinas taking damage...)


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    You bet your doompa they will have to meet M$'s quality control. Apps will have to be written with quality in mind. I don't see a problem with this whatsoever. I expect that out of a product or I don't purchase it. How many people do you think go back to Walmart to buy an item that wore out to replace that same item they bought there originally just because the price is cheaper? I did when I was young until I learned the hard way. That's Walmart's game and they laugh when they're sticking profits into their mansions and on their way to pay dividends to their stockholders. So I've learned to initially shell out a few bucks more so as not to live in a false economy.
    It's not just quality control, it's an iron grip on what MS thinks is "correct" in an app. On iOS, and application CANNOT have an exit button. I'm sure MS will institute other restrictions that have nothing to do with apps being "good" or "quality", but just that they rigidly conform to the MS design philosophy. Maybe there might be a reason to include gradients or rounded buttons, but MS will probably have nothing of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Some app writers and I have been emailing back and forth to solve problems with their apps I installed from the store. One of the apps didn't open totally because, as it ended up, it didn't open fast enough to meet M$'s standard. That's how picky they are. The writer corrected the problem and it presently runs fine. A very fine quality app, too, I must say.
    What if the app needs to load some information, and needs the time before startup. Instead of being able to show the splash screen for longer, the developers will need to roll their own solution. Programs like photoshop and visual studio need time to start up.
    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Sorry. If things go the way I think M$ is headed with M$/Metro interface apps, you won't be able to load 3rd party programs unless they have them written in that interface and sold through the store. You'll have to go elsewhere for an OS. But, I wouldn't concern myself with the stifling of innovation or creativity. I'm quite sure it will happen. The use and results of programs will be the same. They will just be written in a different interface.
    Sorry. If things go the way I think M$ is headed, desktop will be around for a long time. Just the fact that there's a 30% cut, and that most users will still use desktops means that many devs will stick to the easier and more profitable option.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #98


    It's not just quality control, it's an iron grip on what MS thinks is "correct" in an app. On iOS, and application CANNOT have an exit button. I'm sure MS will institute other restrictions that have nothing to do with apps being "good" or "quality", but just that they rigidly conform to the MS design philosophy. Maybe there might be a reason to include gradients or rounded buttons, but MS will probably have nothing of it.
    Oh no! Not another one that thinks M$ is an evil empire. Posters that think that are a dime a dozen here. You won't get an argument out of me. Talk to the hand.
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  9. #99


    Posts : 248
    Windows 8 RTM (Retinas taking damage...)


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    It's not just quality control, it's an iron grip on what MS thinks is "correct" in an app. On iOS, and application CANNOT have an exit button. I'm sure MS will institute other restrictions that have nothing to do with apps being "good" or "quality", but just that they rigidly conform to the MS design philosophy. Maybe there might be a reason to include gradients or rounded buttons, but MS will probably have nothing of it.
    Oh no! Not another one that thinks M$ is an evil empire. Posters that think that are a dime a dozen here. You won't get an argument out of me. Talk to the hand.
    They're not evil, but there will be useful programs that will be rejected for some reason or another. It's an unavoidable fact. Look at all of the apps that are only available on jailbroken and rooted phones. Google isn't evil, and Apple isn't evil, but that does not make more restrictions a good thing.
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  10. #100


    Posts : 993
    Windows 8 pro Retail


    phailyoor? I thought we had dialog going on? What happened to you man? All of a sudden you turned into a Microsoft hater!
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My logic behind Microsoft's controversial decision: Removal of Start
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