Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Will you upgrade? That is the question...

View Poll Results: Will you be upgrading to Windows 8?

Voters
155. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    72 46.45%
  • Maybe

    32 20.65%
  • No

    51 32.90%
  1. #81


    Posts : 454
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
    We're talking about file systems, so to get this back on track in terms of things we can actually observe, WTH is a "data tree"? Do you mean "directory"? Directories that "go six or seven deep" are not even moderately unusual, nor is "massive amounts of data storage", whatever that means, which probably isn't much considering the small capacities of the SSDs you are likely using.
    You have to understand how the underlying filesystem works. It's built upon a computer science concept known as b-trees and linked lists. What can happen, as files are added and deleted to directory entries, is that they get "holes" in them where deleted entries remain and new entries are added onto the end. After a lot of time passes, this makes directory entries quite large and reduce directory scanning performance (because it has to skip over all these old entries). It's true that an SSD will make this faster in many cases as well, but an optimized DE will always be faster than a non-optimized one, regardless of the storage media.

    Still, my point is that defragmentation with a good defragmenter can achieve some benefits.. I don't consider them worth the loss in write cycles caused by defragging an SSD, but still they are there... in some circumstances. I don't advocate defragging an SSD, but at the same time it's not as ridiculous as you like to make out.
    I understand how file systems work, and as a software developer for over 20 years, I've spent a lot of my time choosing data structures such as lists, trees, graphs, etc from libraries when possible and implementing them from scratch when necessary. As I replied to Poppa Bear's enthusiastic adoption of your terminology, I wanted "to get this back on track in terms of things we can actually observe". We can't really observe the "data trees" and other OS data structures (not that Poppa Bear understood that's what you were referring to - after all, he talked about "massive amounts of data storage, with data trees that go six or seven deep", and I'm sure he meant files and directories), and everything you've talked about is conjecture based on some knowledge of how the OS works. That knowledge can be the basis for forming hypotheses and designing experiments, but it cannot be used to draw conclusions, which is what Poppa Bear did. For all we know, the optimization of OS data structures you mentioned and I acknowledged as "interesting" but probably hard to measure amount to microseconds in operations that take milliseconds or longer to complete; IOW, they could very well be negligible. I think this is very likely given the relative speed of SSDs, the ridiculous speed of modern CPUs with gobs of memory at their disposal, the relatively small amounts of data needed to keep track of files and directories as compared to the amount of data they contain and what is done with it, and the scarcity of legitimate people recommending defragmentation of SSDs.

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #82


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
    I understand how file systems work ... and the scarcity of legitimate people recommending defragmentation of SSDs.
    Wow! I'm amazed! You're not just a crustacean, but can actually venture out of your shell and put together a few logical comments instead of just taking cheap shots!

    It seems you've become a legend in your own mind, which has clouded your ability to see things clearly. With all your vast experience, and a man who demands facts, what actual hands on tests have you done to check the difference, and where are the performance graphs to verify your results ... Hmmmm? That should give you something to occupy your time for the next few days.

    No doubt from my experience, defragging SSDs does not harm, and does improve performance. End of my story. Believe what you want.

    Oh, and BTW, as any aeronautical engineer will tell you, polished car and aircraft surfaces reduce the drag coefficient due to air friction, so cars actually do go slightly faster when cleaned.

    He who came to mock, became humble, and stayed to learn!
    Old Poppa Bear adage! LOL!
    Last edited by poppa bear; 09 Jul 2012 at 14:10.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #83


    Posts : 454
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center


    Quote Originally Posted by poppa bear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
    I understand how file systems work ... and the scarcity of legitimate people recommending defragmentation of SSDs.
    Wow! I'm amazed! You're not just a crustacean, but can actually venture out of your shell and put together a few logical comments instead of just taking cheap shots!

    It seems you've become a legend in your own mind, which has clouded your ability to see things clearly. With all your vast experience, and a man who demands facts, what actual hands on tests have you done to check the difference, and where are the performance graphs to verify your results ... Hmmmm?

    No doubt in my mind defragging SSDs does not harm, and does improve performance. End of my story. Believe what you want.
    You familiar with the saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?" Here's a free clue: You're the one with the extraordinary claim, and the dancing elephant is not extraordinary evidence.

    P.S. Despite what my friend says about washing cars, I've never tried to test whether my car drives faster after I wash it. I've addressed several of your misconceptions and odd statements and explained why I don't believe you over several messages, which you've either clipped into nothing, ignored, or dismissed as simple mockery. You replied to my car story with the self-contradictory statement, "Your cynicism, mockery and ridicule don't warrant a reply. ", and unsurprisingly, you failed to see that it anticipated your latest reply.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #84


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
    You familiar with the saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?"
    You don't get it do you! I'm not interested in trying to "prove" anything to anybody, and especially not to a self-proclaimed expert and cynic like you. I'm simply stating my experience and my interpretation of the facts. Up until your last post your only reply was to mock and ridicule.

    Sounds like you're the one trying to prove something. And as I said before, since you demand facts, produce the performance graphs of heavily loaded OSs on SSDs before and after defrag. Put your money where your mouth is.

    If an SSD HD controller is randomly accessing data from various parts of the HD in parallel, it then has to put them in logical sequential order to read the data as a binary code. If the bytes of data are already in a logical sequential order it eliminates the step needed to put them in order. It can just read it straight off without organizing it. And hence is faster, even if only margianlly so. At least that's what I was taught when doing basic programming while studying electronic engineering. And at the hardware level the reading is still controlled by a series of electronic flip-flop switches in the logic chips.

    Re extraordinary claims, a M$ techo told me it was impossible to successfully load Win98 on a hard drive, AFTER loading XP, so they both work. Well, guess what? I did it. And M$ didn't want to know how! So much for certainty in the world of PCs. Besides, how do I know you're not just telling pork pies? Matter of fact, all your posts are generalities, and whether you're saying stuff in ignorance, or just flat out lieing, I don't know. But equally, I don't believe you either.

    I stand by what I said. End of story. ps: The party icon only proves I'm not interested in your opinion, crawdad.
    Last edited by poppa bear; 09 Jul 2012 at 17:05.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #85


    USA
    Posts : 100
    Windows 7 Professional


    Why are you all still arguing about this?
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #86


    Posts : 5,360
    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin


    Why are you all still arguing about this?
    Maybe they enjoy it.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #87


    USA
    Posts : 100
    Windows 7 Professional


    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    Why are you all still arguing about this?
    Maybe they enjoy it.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #88


    Posts : 239
    Win7 & 8 64bit / Linux Mint 14


    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    Why are you all still arguing about this?
    Maybe they enjoy it.
    Think some folks need to chill out over this. Reminds me on another thread about the virtues of Win8 over Win7 and vice versa.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #89


    Posts : 5,360
    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin


    Nine pages of Yes or No is dreary.

    Might as well spice it up a bit.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #90


    Nine pages of Yes or No is dreary.

    Might as well spice it up a bit.
    And spice it up you gentlemen did! Now I know everything about Defrag as I ever wanna' know!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

Page 9 of 33 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast
Will you upgrade? That is the question...
Related Threads
[Question] VGA Upgrade in Graphic Cards
i have a xfx HD7850 1GB, i was reading reviews, and i was wondering if upgrading to a GTX 670 will be a reall upgrade ... i saw it was powerful than mi HD7850, but, will i see any improvement ?? like 10 ~ 15 fps ??
Solved Win 8 upgrade question in Installation & Setup
Hi, I'm hoping someone will be kind enough to help me out with my question. A few months ago I bought the 'Windows 8 upgrade' disk to put on my daughters PC. She had a previous Win7 OEM installed so I upgraded to win8 on her PC and activated. However it soon became obvious that she preferred...
Upgrade Question in General Support
I have Windows 8 Pro w/ Windows Media Center. Can I upgrade for free to Windows 8.1 Pro w/Media Center? I'll stay with Windows 8 Pro if it will cost me money.
I apologize if this has been answered already elsewhere, the search didn't bear fruit. I'm trying to hunt down an answer for a family member and haven't had much luck as of yet. I even tried to call into Microsoft but their phone reps couldn't seem to understand the details of the question. A...
Upgrade question in Installation & Setup
Hi there, I had/have the Microsoft Windows 8 Debug/Checked Build 64-bit (English that I got from Microsoft's ELMS program (student software). My question is...if i try reinstalling will that automatically update me to the offcial release of Windows 8 64-bit? As i remember when it was still...
An upgrade question in Installation & Setup
I have WIndows 7 64 bit and I just wondering on something. If I ""upgrade" from Widnows 7 to Windows 8 Release preview, can I upgrade from the release preview to the full version of Windows 8 when it's released? Im getting my Windows 8 from windowsupgradeoffer.com. So can I upgrade from release...
Upgrade question in General Support
I have a PC with JUST Win8 RP on it. That's it. No Win7 or any other previous version of Windows anywhere on the hard drive. Now, my question is: how do I upgrade to Win8? I know the $40 upgrade applies to previewers like myself, however I read that in order for that to work you have to...
Eight Forums Android App Eight Forums IOS App Follow us on Facebook