Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Will you upgrade? That is the question...

View Poll Results: Will you be upgrading to Windows 8?

Voters
155. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    72 46.45%
  • Maybe

    32 20.65%
  • No

    51 32.90%
  1. #71


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by windude99 View Post

    I don't live in fear in the dark ages! We can agree and disagree, but the fact that you posted this in this thread and didn't make a new thread is ridiculous.
    Lets get the facts straight. I didn't post this in this thread ... YOU DID! I simply replied to your original post, as per this quote from that post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Windude99
    I defrag hard drives, but NEVER ssds.
    Strange, but I notice this bit from your previous post has been edited out. Hmmmmm?
    Last edited by poppa bear; 09 Jul 2012 at 07:31.

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  2. #72


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by windude99 View Post
    That was part of my SIGNATURE not my POST! And the reason why I edited that out is because I don't want you starting another arguement about this.
    No argument. Just plain disagreement with your interpretation of facts, which understanding I consider to be living in the dark ages. Just trying to enlighten, that's all.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #73


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by windude99 View Post
    It was just a little bit of advice as they don't need defragging.
    That statement is not always true. As pointed out by Mystere, in some situations defragging an SSD can increase OS performance. And in that scenario, then they do need defragging.

    To ignore that is living in denial.

    It's like your previous sweeping statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by windude99 View Post
    It's like using registry cleaners, they do more HARM than good.
    Utter nonsense. They remove the need for the OS to check obsolete/corrupted entries. Less entries to check = faster.

    Try using Glary Utilites award winning software! Brilliant! And totally free! And it auto saves a back-up copy of the deleted entries if there are any glitches. Been using it for years and never a problem, only increased speed.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #74


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by windude99 View Post
    And wait until you start having system instabillity because of the registry cleaner. Also, these articles/pages disagree with your point of view on defragging ssds.
    Like I said, been using Glary for yonks, and no instability, just more speed. If you're afraid to use them, fair enough, don't!

    Like I said earlier, I disagree with the point of view expressed in those threads for the reasons stated by Mystere. If you disagree with Mystere's factual points, please point out the errors.

    I do agree that TRIM is also a good optimizer, and is normally auto enabled in Win7 as can be checked per the command prompt in system tools.
    Last edited by poppa bear; 09 Jul 2012 at 08:16.
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  5. #75


    USA
    Posts : 100
    Windows 7 Professional


    Quote Originally Posted by poppa bear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by windude99 View Post
    And wait until you start having system instabillity because of the registry cleaner. Also, these articles/pages disagree with your point of view on defragging ssds.
    Like I said, been using Glary for yonks, and no instability, just more speed. If you're afraid to use them, fair enough, don't!

    Like I said earlier, I disagree with the point of view expressed in those threads for the reasons stated by Mystere. If you disagree with Mystere's factual points, please point out the errors.
    We can have a massive discussion about this if you would like, but in a DIFFERENT thread. Make a thread for this instead of putting all of these posts in this thread. Back on topic now. I may upgrade one of my computers to Windows 8 since it's 40 bucks, so I think that's a great deal, especially since there's stuff like classic shell for it.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #76


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by windude99 View Post
    We can have a massive discussion about this if you would like, but in a DIFFERENT thread. Make a thread for this instead of putting all of these posts in this thread.
    No need, I've said everything I want to say, and stand by it. So no point to further discussion, unless you want to start a new thread and dispute Mystere's various points.

    No offence intended and no hard feelings on this side.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #77


    Posts : 454
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center


    Quote Originally Posted by poppa bear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gazz9496 View Post
    I gotta say this is quite ridiculous, ssd's don't even store data or access it in the same way as mechanical drives in fact they are so far removed from each other that i'm surprised an ssd would even allow a defrag to be done.
    What's ridiculous is that you didn't actually read what I wrote. I never said anything about where sectors are stored or how they were arranged. You are arguing against what you think I said, not what I actually said.

    I said quite clearly that the actual act of defragging was pointless on an SSD (you did read that, right?) But moving sectors around is not the only that that many defrag utilities do. They also optimize the filesystem itself (not just the files within the filesystem). That optimization can reduce the size of the data trees, which means that traversing those trees takes less time because there are fewer branches. This has nothing to do with where files are located, and everything to do with the NUMBER of sectors required to be traversed to retrieve that data. If you have fewer sectors to traverse, it takes less time, and thus is more efficient.

    I also said that this was unlikely to amount to any major improvements, but regardless it *IS* an improvement. Just not one you will likely be able to measure in most situations, or even perceive.

    Yes, it doesn't matter where the sectors are on the SSD, but that's only part of what slows down file access. Other parts of it are related to excessive extents (which take cpu cycles to process) and complex File and Directory entries (again, which take CPU cycles to process).
    Totally fact based and right on the money.
    Now that's funny. It ends with the conjecture that the performance difference isn't even normally measurable, yet you've interpreted it as confirmation of your unusual belief that it is more than measurable but easily and regularly perceptible to a human.

    As I said in my earlier post, the improvement is marginal, but nevertheless there is an improvement ... and it is noticeable. I have massive amounts of data storage, with data trees that go six or seven deep.
    We're talking about file systems, so to get this back on track in terms of things we can actually observe, WTH is a "data tree"? Do you mean "directory"? Directories that "go six or seven deep" are not even moderately unusual, nor is "massive amounts of data storage", whatever that means, which probably isn't much considering the small capacities of the SSDs you are likely using.

    The difference is most noticeable when I reload an Acronis image of my OS with all third party apps and programs installed; which OS had been defragged before burning the image, but no data installed. And then re-load the data. And then compare that data loaded OS to the one I just replaced.
    I know a guy who believes his car drives faster after it's been washed.

    The statements from various PC techos corroborate my own experience with the longevity of solid state electronic components used for data recording. While studying electronic engineering way back in 1975 I had to buy a Hewlett-Packhard programmable solid state electronic calculator. It's now 37 years old, and apart from a few keys sticking, the electronics work as good as the day I bought it. And it's had the backside used out of it. In fact I still use it.
    That is a complete non sequitur. Random thoughts like that shouldn't even bubble into consciousness much less make it into your messages. It's got to be the worst "argument from authority" I've ever heard anyone attempt to pass off.

    So for those who disagree, we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you want to live in fear in the dark ages, go for it!
    So far, your "arguments" have the same structure and "fact" quality as audiophile discussions on things like cable directionality, and your enthusiasm for your beliefs is also redolent of that world. Business plan!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #78


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
    We're talking about file systems, so to get this back on track in terms of things we can actually observe, WTH is a "data tree"? Do you mean "directory"? Directories that "go six or seven deep" are not even moderately unusual, nor is "massive amounts of data storage", whatever that means, which probably isn't much considering the small capacities of the SSDs you are likely using.
    You have to understand how the underlying filesystem works. It's built upon a computer science concept known as b-trees and linked lists. What can happen, as files are added and deleted to directory entries, is that they get "holes" in them where deleted entries remain and new entries are added onto the end. After a lot of time passes, this makes directory entries quite large and reduce directory scanning performance (because it has to skip over all these old entries). It's true that an SSD will make this faster in many cases as well, but an optimized DE will always be faster than a non-optimized one, regardless of the storage media.

    Still, my point is that defragmentation with a good defragmenter can achieve some benefits.. I don't consider them worth the loss in write cycles caused by defragging an SSD, but still they are there... in some circumstances. I don't advocate defragging an SSD, but at the same time it's not as ridiculous as you like to make out.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #79


    After thinking about it awhile, I'm liking 8 a great deal. I've changed my mind. I'm now using 8 as my primary OS and 7 as secondary. I'm definitely upgrading. I unvoted "Maybe" and revoted "Yes". The only thing that bugs me on 8 is the Metro IE10. Doesn't run correctly after I use it awhile. No big deal, for there's desktop version which does. And I'm sure bugs will be worked out by final release.

    So it's a big YES from me!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #80


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
    I know a guy who believes his car drives faster after it's been washed.
    Your cynicism, mockery and ridicule don't warrant a reply.
    Last edited by poppa bear; 09 Jul 2012 at 13:08.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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