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View Poll Results: Will you be upgrading to Windows 8?

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  • Maybe

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    51 32.90%
  1. #61


    Posts : 454
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center


    Quote Originally Posted by poppa bear View Post
    I'm quoting from the technicians who work in retail computer stores, and exclusively sell PCs and PC parts, etc.

    In Perth West Australia, these include Arrow Computers, Austin Computers, PLE Computers, NetPlus Computers, and the list goes on.
    Sorry. Based on their nonsense, they sure sounded like they could be "techs" who work at Best Buy and Office Depot.

    As one senior technician put it: "Your computer will wear out before you wear out your SSD by defrags."
    That's not inconsistent with what I said, "the only potential effect is to decrease the lifespan of the SSD by increasing the number of writes". You see, I was trying hard to think of an effect, and that's all I could come up with.

    And the reasons you do it are the normal ones. To make data access faster ... and I do notice the difference after a defrag.
    I'm sure you believe that, but people believe a lot of things that aren't objectively true.

    Also to clean a drive where it's been polluted with viruses, etc, before a re-install.
    That makes no sense. Defragging by definition just moves data around and cannot possibly help with a virus infection. If you're talking about reinstalling an OS, you should always format the target partition and start from scratch.

    What you choose to believe is up to you. But both my SSDs and my old reserve one, are all going strong as ever. And I will be continuing to defrag.
    You do that. But try to understand, defragging SSDs is not even a minor controversy, which is why you'll attract ridicule whenever you mention it. Again, I urge you to have your "techs" explain how defragging an SSD improves performance and how wear-leveling factors into their theories. Then you can google what they say and refute it all. I'd suggest you try to measure the performance improvements you claim to observe, but based on what you've posted, I'm doubtful you could come up with a valid methodology.

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #62


    Posts : 1
    windows 8


    Yes! I have a dual boot win8 and win7 on my laptop as a trial and I d/l an app thats made my ipad be able to connect to my win8 on my laptop. Ive bought a touchscreen desktop as well and will upgrade when win8 is available.
    I work with older people and touch is a far better move for people than a mouse situation, especially people with arthritis in their hands.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #63


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Defragging *CAN* increase performance on an SSD, depending on the kind of defrag you use. Although the actual act of defragging is pointless on an SSD, many defrag programs will optimize the filesystem in a couple of different ways.

    1) it can remove excess extents, which can reduce the number of lookups that must be done.
    2) It can condense partial sectors into single sectors where appropriate
    3) It can reorganize the directory entries and reduce the size of the trees, which can reduce memory footprint and tree walking time.
    4) Oooh.. look at the pretty blocks as they move around... that must make my disk faster

    So, while it's not completely accurate to say that defragging can't improve performance on an SSD, the amount of performance improvement is likely to be quite minimal, unless the filesystem is severely fragmented with gigantic MFT and DE trees. In which case a defrag could improve noticeably, but still not anything major.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #64


    Posts : 224
    .


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Defragging *CAN* increase performance on an SSD, depending on the kind of defrag you use. Although the actual act of defragging is pointless on an SSD, many defrag programs will optimize the filesystem in a couple of different ways.

    1) it can remove excess extents, which can reduce the number of lookups that must be done.
    2) It can condense partial sectors into single sectors where appropriate
    3) It can reorganize the directory entries and reduce the size of the trees, which can reduce memory footprint and tree walking time.
    4) Oooh.. look at the pretty blocks as they move around... that must make my disk faster

    So, while it's not completely accurate to say that defragging can't improve performance on an SSD, the amount of performance improvement is likely to be quite minimal, unless the filesystem is severely fragmented with gigantic MFT and DE trees. In which case a defrag could improve noticeably, but still not anything major.
    I gotta say this is quite ridiculous, ssd's don't even store data or access it in the same way as mechanical drives in fact they are so far removed from each other that i'm surprised an ssd would even allow a defrag to be done.

    ssd's always know where each block of data is always. as to access speeds, they will always go down with an ssd until trim is fully functional whereby dead data is actually removed instead of just ignored then written over at a later point in time.

    ssd's already know where all data is, lookups aren't done in the same way.
    sectors....seriously were talking ssd's here not magnetic discs. they don't work like that at all.

    no manufacturer will honor a warranty if you defrag your ssd every bloody week like an idiot.

    TRIM people thats what that is for, run that and all your woes will be resolved.....not defrag use TRIM.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #65


    Posts : 454
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center


    Quote Originally Posted by gazz9496 View Post
    ssd's don't even store data or access it in the same way as mechanical drives
    Indeed, the point is that SSDs do wear-leveling to spread the writes around, so that writing the same cell over and over again is avoided. This means that the OS's idea of where files exist on an SSD does not correspond to where they actually are stored. Thus a defragger will spend a huge amount of effort consolidating files and free space, but the improvements will exist only in the mind of the OS. The SSD is going to store things wherever its wear-leveling algorithm determines is best to maximize the life of the drive. But guess what? That's what it already has done up to the point you decided to defragment, and defragmenting amounts to giving an extra shuffle to a well-shuffled deck of cards. Even if physical contiguity could be achieved, it's just not important for SSDs like it is for hard drives, because the former doesn't have the latencies of the latter, i.e. there's no spinning disk or head assembly to wait on.

    What Mystere said about the side-effect of defragmenting optimizing OS data structures is interesting, but I'm not aware that anyone has demonstrated it to make any sort of appreciable difference, such that defragmenting SSDs should be considered a reasonable idea. I'm even less aware that anyone has a method for determining when it could help, assuming there are cases when it can. IOW, defragmenting an SSD is at best on the level of doing a rain dance. In fact, it probably doesn't even rise to that level, as I expect it would be more difficult to reliably assess the results in terms of improved performance, memory usage, etc in a system as complicated as Windows, with so much going on under the hood all the time, especially when the improvements are likely to be so small.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #66


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by guroo View Post
    Yes! I have a dual boot win8 and win7 on my laptop as a trial and I d/l an app thats made my ipad be able to connect to my win8 on my laptop. Ive bought a touchscreen desktop as well and will upgrade when win8 is available.
    I work with older people and touch is a far better move for people than a mouse situation, especially people with arthritis in their hands.
    That's actually what I've heard from a few people that work with elderly people, they like using ipads because you can actually TOUCH it and not just interact with it. I think it's a generational thing since in their time, they touched everything they interacted with and didn't really use a tool to interact with something, like the mouse.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #67


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Defragging flash memory is futile since it causes superfluous wear on the flash for incredibly little gain. Enough said, and I am still planning on upgrading to Windows 8!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #68


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by gazz9496 View Post
    I gotta say this is quite ridiculous, ssd's don't even store data or access it in the same way as mechanical drives in fact they are so far removed from each other that i'm surprised an ssd would even allow a defrag to be done.
    What's ridiculous is that you didn't actually read what I wrote. I never said anything about where sectors are stored or how they were arranged. You are arguing against what you think I said, not what I actually said.

    I said quite clearly that the actual act of defragging was pointless on an SSD (you did read that, right?) But moving sectors around is not the only that that many defrag utilities do. They also optimize the filesystem itself (not just the files within the filesystem). That optimization can reduce the size of the data trees, which means that traversing those trees takes less time because there are fewer branches. This has nothing to do with where files are located, and everything to do with the NUMBER of sectors required to be traversed to retrieve that data. If you have fewer sectors to traverse, it takes less time, and thus is more efficient.

    I also said that this was unlikely to amount to any major improvements, but regardless it *IS* an improvement. Just not one you will likely be able to measure in most situations, or even perceive.

    Yes, it doesn't matter where the sectors are on the SSD, but that's only part of what slows down file access. Other parts of it are related to excessive extents (which take cpu cycles to process) and complex File and Directory entries (again, which take CPU cycles to process).
    Last edited by Mystere; 09 Jul 2012 at 01:53.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #69


    Defragging as ssd is not a good idea. There will be NO tangible benefits at all. But you will dirty the drive up and leave a nice cleanup job for the controller.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #70


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gazz9496 View Post
    I gotta say this is quite ridiculous, ssd's don't even store data or access it in the same way as mechanical drives in fact they are so far removed from each other that i'm surprised an ssd would even allow a defrag to be done.
    What's ridiculous is that you didn't actually read what I wrote. I never said anything about where sectors are stored or how they were arranged. You are arguing against what you think I said, not what I actually said.

    I said quite clearly that the actual act of defragging was pointless on an SSD (you did read that, right?) But moving sectors around is not the only that that many defrag utilities do. They also optimize the filesystem itself (not just the files within the filesystem). That optimization can reduce the size of the data trees, which means that traversing those trees takes less time because there are fewer branches. This has nothing to do with where files are located, and everything to do with the NUMBER of sectors required to be traversed to retrieve that data. If you have fewer sectors to traverse, it takes less time, and thus is more efficient.

    I also said that this was unlikely to amount to any major improvements, but regardless it *IS* an improvement. Just not one you will likely be able to measure in most situations, or even perceive.

    Yes, it doesn't matter where the sectors are on the SSD, but that's only part of what slows down file access. Other parts of it are related to excessive extents (which take cpu cycles to process) and complex File and Directory entries (again, which take CPU cycles to process).
    Totally fact based and right on the money.

    As I said in my earlier post, the improvement is marginal, but nevertheless there is an improvement ... and it is noticeable. I have massive amounts of data storage, with data trees that go six or seven deep. The difference is most noticeable when I reload an Acronis image of my OS with all third party apps and programs installed; which OS had been defragged before burning the image, but no data installed. And then re-load the data. And then compare that data loaded OS to the one I just replaced.

    The statements from various PC techos corroborate my own experience with the longevity of solid state electronic components used for data recording. While studying electronic engineering way back in 1975 I had to buy a Hewlett-Packhard programmable solid state electronic calculator. It's now 37 years old, and apart from a few keys sticking, the electronics work as good as the day I bought it. And it's had the backside used out of it. In fact I still use it.

    So for those who disagree, we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you want to live in fear in the dark ages, go for it!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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