Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Will you upgrade? That is the question...

View Poll Results: Will you be upgrading to Windows 8?

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  • Yes

    72 46.45%
  • Maybe

    32 20.65%
  • No

    51 32.90%
  1. #101


    Posts : 454
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center


    Quote Originally Posted by poppa bear View Post
    In fairness and the scientific principle of seeking facts, today I spoke to the professor who is head of the Dept of Eelctronics and Computer Science at Curtin University, West Australia. I asked if defragging SSDs is good, bad or indiferent. This is his answer:

    No you definitely should not defrag SSDs for two reasons.

    1. SSDs have a finite number of writes & reads, so defrags reduce the life span of the SSD.

    2. The memory is differently oragnized so there is no need for it.

    Defragging per se would have no detrimental effects, and in some cases could marginally increase the performance, but it is so small a gain it is not justified in respect of reason #1 above.
    So he told you what I told you and what others told you and what I said others would tell you.

    While I acknowledge his superior academic background, I am still not totally convinced, because his premise is primarily based on conserving the write/read life of an SSD. And this is definitely an open area of investigation, as shown by this typical blog by Max Schireson entitled: "Debunking SSD lifespan and random write performance concerns." It is found via this link HERE. In part he says:

    Durability: The short answer is I wouldn’t worry about it.

    For applications which are heavy on random writes, you’re OK (meaning a life span of over 5 years) up to about 25 million writes per day per drive, which is nearly double the IO capacity of the fastest hard disk drives.

    For sequential write heavy applications (which benefit far less from SSDs), you’re OK (same 5 year life cycle) assuming the application re-writes each block on average no more than once per half hour; the smallest size of the latest fast HDD’s can barely manage this (take a Seagate Cheetah 15k.7 at 300GB for example, which has a claimed sustained write throughput of 171 MBps), and it gets harder as disks get larger.
    And so it goes on. Note the reference to sequential writing and relate that to ability of hardware logical flip-flop IC chips to read binary codes once the data is collated.

    In summary:


    • I am of the opinion that durability is not an issue.



    • I strongly suspect there are certain environemnts in which defrag would help ... especially if the right type of defrag application is used. And this warrants further investigation.
    I guess you didn't read the comments where someone said:

    Assuming a lifespan of 100,000 write cycles per block..
    LOL, all the new 25nm ssd drives are rated at 3000 write cycles per block, down from 5000 for the 34nm. Where did you pull the 100k from, SLC memory??


    And the author of the article replied:

    Yes, I was referring to SLC memory as used in higher end SSDs like the X25E. Completely different story with lower end consumer MLC drives, I’d be very careful about lifespan there.

    I guess you're also unaware of Intel whitepapers for drives like my X25-M which talk about over-provisioning the drive to extend the lifespan. They use the 160 GB model as an example and give 29 TB for the expected endurance OOTB, increasing to 68 TB with 16 GB overprovisioning and so on. Most people will just format to maximum capacity, which means that things like hibernation and hybrid sleep can use up the majority of their writes all by themselves. Though pointless, I would guess defragging is less of a concern WRT lifespan because it's done much less frequently than sleeping, and once defragged, files stay defragged. So it would be expected that an initial defragmentation would move a lot of data around, but subsequent ones would move less.

    I always recommend disabling hybrid sleep on SSDs unless you really need it, and if you're on a laptop, you don't thanks to the battery, and on a desktop equipped with a decent UPS like my APC XS-1500 running Powerchute, you don't, because the UPS will wake it from regular sleep to hibernate in the event of a prolonged power outage. This saves me 10s of GBs of completely pointless writes per day.

    All that said, I'm sure you'll continue to believe whatever you find fun to believe, seize upon speculation and repeatedly present it as facts that support your mistaken beliefs, and hurl some more insults at people who are trying to help you.

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #102


    The benefits for defragging a mechanical hard drive are due to the fact that it takes the drives on average 12-40ms to access a file depending upon it's location. So, if a file is fragmented and in 3 different chunks, the time to fully access can lead to slower performance.

    On an SSD, with access times of 0.1ms for all files regardless of position, you would have to have MASSIVE amounts of fragmentation before the access time would slow to that of a regular hard drive in a perfect state.

    Since the benefit is so tiny, and the write cycles are finite, the general consensus is that there is no benefit to the defrag. I have never defragged mine and they still run absolutely great.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #103


    Toronto, Canada. Born in the U.K.
    Posts : 691
    Win 10 Pro + Win 7 Ult SP1 (x64)


    I shall stay with my current OS's until the reach their expiry dates then I will think about strategy. Maybe by then Windows 9 will be out and Microsoft may then have listened to the critics.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #104


    Covington, La
    Posts : 1,184
    Windows 7 HP 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro w/Media Center 64BIT


    I hesitate to continue this off-topic subject, but no one seems to care.

    PDF file from Diskeeper on SSD defrag.

    http://storage.condusiv.com/28117/pd...Technology.pdf

    From what I have read at other sites a normal HDD defrag utility should not be used on a SSD. Diskeeper has developed a special defrag for SSD's called HyperFast while some SSD vendors have developed a similar system they refer to as Garbage Collection. If your SSD has the proper Garbage Collection algorithm them no "defrag" is needed.

    Don't defrag an SSD - Optimize it.

    Jim
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #105


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Ex_Brit View Post
    I shall stay with my current OS's until the reach their expiry dates then I will think about strategy. Maybe by then Windows 9 will be out and Microsoft may then have listened to the critics.
    My attitude exactly!

    Quote Originally Posted by 714 View Post
    And watch OS X start selling multiple editions. At the same prices of Seven.
    If Mac OS X is as good as '714' says it is, I would seriously consider moving over. The thing that would kill me would be not being able to build my own machine and having to buy a Mac ready assembled. That's the option I'm faced with in Perth, West Aussie. Is there another way with Mac?
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #106


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
    I'm sure you'll continue to believe whatever you find fun ...
    Good god man, are you still there! You're like an annoying minnion nipping at my ankles!

    What gives me the greatest fun is the control I have over you in being able to troll the lure, see you rise to it, hook yourself, and then reel you in! No wonder you called yourself 'crawfish'!

    Sorry to spoil the fun, but I've run out of bait, so let me give you some free advice: Chill out, get over it, and move on! But knowing you I'm sure you'll rise to this bait too!

    Are we having fun yet?
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #107


    Quote Originally Posted by poppa bear View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by 714 View Post
    And watch OS X start selling multiple editions. At the same prices of Seven.
    If Mac OS X is as good as '714' says it is, I would seriously consider moving over. The thing that would kill me would be not being able to build my own machine and having to buy a Mac ready assembled. That's the option I'm faced with in Perth, West Aussie. Is there another way with Mac?
    Well, if you want it legally, then you'd have to buy it assembled, but if you don't mind breaking the EULA, you can install it with the retail disc. Never do it with a hacked version, ex. Snow Hazard. But I definitely perfer OS X over Windows. And, I can still run Windows easily, so OS X is big win win for me.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #108


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by 714 View Post
    Well, if you want it legally, then you'd have to buy it assembled, but if you don't mind breaking the EULA, you can install it with the retail disc. Never do it with a hacked version, ex. Snow Hazard. But I definitely perfer OS X over Windows. And, I can still run Windows easily, so OS X is big win win for me.
    That's very interesting. I presume the retail disc is an OEM one that comes with the assembled unit?

    I was friends with a PC techo a few years ago, and he only did Mac, and for businesses. Might try to catch up with him and see what he can offer. Thanks for the input '714'.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #109


    No way no how. Metro drives me nuts so I just go to the desktop, and let's see:

    - No Start Menu (unless you count Metro, which I don't)
    - Gotta find the magic corners
    - It took me 2-3 weeks of casual use to figure out just how to shut down the computer and I'm an IT pro
    - I have yet to figure out how to simply logoff in lieu of shutting down
    - I like Aero and I don't want to give it up for the ugly Windows 8 "theme" they've chosen to give us

    That said, could I maybe somehow get used to it? Yeah, if I had to. The nice thing is I don't have to!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #110


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by TerryE View Post
    - Gotta find the magic corners
    - It took me 2-3 weeks of casual use to figure out just how to shut down the computer and I'm an IT pro
    - I have yet to figure out how to simply logoff in lieu of shutting down
    - I like Aero and I don't want to give it up for the ugly Windows 8 "theme" they've chosen to give us
    Really? It took you 2-3 weeks to figure out where the power button was? Shut down your computer by pressing the physical power button on your computer, that's all it takes. Alternatively, ctrl-alt-del and click the button that looks like a power button in the lower right corner. The long way is to go to the charms menu, settings, then click on the power button.

    Log off instead of shutting down? Ctrl-alt-del, then Sign Out. How difficult is that? This is exactly the same as it worked in Windows 7 and XP before that.

    As for Aero, i'm sure the likes of WindowBlinds and what not will bring it back if you want it.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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