Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


This will be Microsofts biggest ever flop, far bigger than Vista.

  1. #1271


    Posts : 2
    Windows 8/Windows 7 Dualboot


    Quote Originally Posted by link626 View Post
    I just installed win8 on a vm for the first time.

    MS is going to need a video tutorial built into win8 to help people get over the learning curve regarding where everything has been rearranged. Otherwise, people are going to be pissed.

    Most people are not that patient, especially when it comes to pc's.

    The first thing I hate is all the unnecessary clicking and dragging. Sure, it gives my wrists a good workout. MS should have included non-touch PC exclusive features.

    There IS a video. Your not running the latest version of Windows 8. Get Windows 8 Final aka RTM edition. While it was installing an awesome video tutorial popped up.

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  2. #1272


    Posts : 738
    1st W10 Professional x64/W7 Ultimate x64 - 2nd Remote system: W10 Insider Builds/W7 Professional


    [QUOTE=totfit;123093]
    Quote Originally Posted by Night Hawk View Post

    With 8 the problems stem from the drastic scramble up the OS move MS made. While the Charms bar offers so many settings of this or that where did the Control Panel go??? It's a mystery!

    Now try and recommend a "Mystery OS" to someone you would like to see move up and out of an older problematic version to a new far more secure and stable OS when you have to take them through a college prep course just to learn where everythine is?!

    The shortcut for the control panel is on the start page. This is a lot easier to find than it is in other versions of windows. Heck most users don't know where the control panel is on any version of windows. They just use the OS cluelessly.
    "IT'S A MYSTERY!" and you are not supposed to know where everything went is the best way to describe the MS thinking with 8 seen so far! Leave the user "in the dark" and expect them to swallow whole the new Tablet touchscreen layout without question. Afterall the typical users won't know any better wiil they?

    The settings do allow you to have the CP on display at the botton of any Windows Explorer window you open. So far they haven't thought of removing that option entirely. But for the novice or less pc literate user the "not finding Settings" in any form of Start menu will be "UNACCEPTABLE"! right from the start.

    Will some rave about the "New Look" they often forget most simply want a new style on something still familiar with not an entirely different OS to work with and end up being "lost in the wilderness" trying to figure out where everything is. While MS is thinking it is about time we develop a touchscreen capable Windows rather then that being a 3rd party controlled addon they turned the most familiar OS inside out and expect all to jump for joy?

    If MS continues in the same fashion with the next versions to follow 8 the PC world is in a heap of serious trouble since most will be hanging onto the older familiar versions as 7 ages along with Vista and XP long past the date of expirations! just to do business as usual. The one thing to note about 8 as far as how it is being sold is different from any previous version as far as what you will be seeing on any retail chain store shelves like no Full version in media form sleeves for each edition.

    The retail Upgrade carton and OEM For System Builders releases of each edition would be the only physical media 8 will be release on. With every previous version you could walk in and buy a full or upgrade package or have it shipped out with purchase since store place empty sleeves on shelves as a rule prevently shop lifting of softwares. The AnyTimeUpgrade and electronic downloads online other then preinstalled 8 will be what you see as far as how 8 will be marketed.

    It will probably be the smart move by MS for that at least since 8 will likely tank once out and people simply buying a new machine will be demanding refunds when returning them from not being able to use the OS on them! A good number of potential new system desktop and laptop buyers are going to be hot under their collars without a doubt!
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  3. #1273


    Posts : 5,360
    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin


    I didn't see an awesome video in rtm


    Quote Originally Posted by Second View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by link626 View Post
    I just installed win8 on a vm for the first time.

    MS is going to need a video tutorial built into win8 to help people get over the learning curve regarding where everything has been rearranged. Otherwise, people are going to be pissed.

    Most people are not that patient, especially when it comes to pc's.

    The first thing I hate is all the unnecessary clicking and dragging. Sure, it gives my wrists a good workout. MS should have included non-touch PC exclusive features.

    There IS a video. Your not running the latest version of Windows 8. Get Windows 8 Final aka RTM edition. While it was installing an awesome video tutorial popped up.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #1274


    The thing is, we have to remember where the evolution of the PC is at this point. With any new tool, there is a period of rapid development as various companies come up with better and more reliable versions of that tool. Eventually you reach an apex where the tool is mostly useful as it is, with less room for innovation.

    Take the word processor. For the average person, how much more do you need than what Word 2003 already provides? Where things get more interesting is with groups of people working on the same document, and heuristic methods of integration. Such environments require advanced programming to get the job done. But for the average person, this is superfluous. So, Microsoft can try to introduce more changes to a word processor that ALREADY works just fine for most people... and that won't bring in more sales.

    The same thing is true for the operating system. It's the sandbox within all applications must play. The best operating systems are ones you do not notice. They are simple, easy to use, reliable, and efficient. Changing your settings is straightforward. Running applications happens seamlessly. Programs don't crash. Everything works. Once you achieve that... what else is there?

    What W8 should have been is an industrial strength OS with a comprehensive GUI API, whereby a myriad of different shells could be written for it. Thus, you could be running a shell that looks and functions just like W7, W8, Linux, X-Windows, Mac OS, Android, etc. It shouldn't matter. This way you can appeal to anyone who wants to use your operating system. People are diverse in their specific needs and preferences. It's useless to try getting everybody to like one particular user interface. So... make it interchangeable. That's what an operating system should be. Microsoft could have done that with W8... but instead we got this half thought-out "experiment".
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  5. #1275


    DeLand, FL
    Posts : 380
    Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit


    Quote Originally Posted by cytherian View Post
    What W8 should have been is an industrial strength OS with a comprehensive GUI API, whereby a myriad of different shells could be written for it. Thus, you could be running a shell that looks and functions just like W7, W8, Linux, X-Windows, Mac OS, Android, etc. It shouldn't matter. This way you can appeal to anyone who wants to use your operating system. People are diverse in their specific needs and preferences. It's useless to try getting everybody to like one particular user interface. So... make it interchangeable. That's what an operating system should be. Microsoft could have done that with W8... but instead we got this half thought-out "experiment".
    That's a good thought but how practical it is I don't know. The "one kernel many GUI" approach is exactly what Linux is and look at the penetration IT has in the desktop market. (<2%). Windows has the deep penetration it does because of the consistency of the GUI interface. Yes, they have changed the style of the GUI to some degree (through W7, that is), however the programming API that controls the GUI has remained relatively consistent which is why it is so well understood. The way things are done under the Windows model is not only consistent at the programming level but everyone understands how to use the GUI.

    The wide-scope changes Microsoft is making to the GUI with Win8 is a monumental risk. Will the existing desktop user-base accept it or will Microsoft have to build a completely new market? I don't think anyone knows the definitive answer to that question. Agreed ... W8 is a "half-thought-out experiment" (in many of our opinions). It's going to be interesting to watch how all this plays out. As a developer I've already stated that I'm sitting this one out for awhile. I've managed to position myself where W8 is pretty irrelevant to me so I'll be able to just observe it without much exposure. Bring me some more popcorn, please.

    -Max
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #1276


    Posts : 738
    1st W10 Professional x64/W7 Ultimate x64 - 2nd Remote system: W10 Insider Builds/W7 Professional


    Popcorn, peanuts, soft drinks, vendors are here! Take a breather! Sit back and watch the show!

    I will likely be sitting 8 out as well at least until the prices dtop like they are now for finding 7 media online. The initial retail tags upwards of $300+ for the Ultimate and over $200 for Pro have seen some drastic price drops down under $100 for some media. If I find need Hyper V then 8 would become a secondary OS for that reason.

    That simply shows someone taking 8 on as a second OS rather then replacing the existin main OS since it leaves much to be desired! And the word "Experiment" is precisely what MS is doing when introducing a touch screen OS for the first time. While touch screen suppport has been improved in Windows for the two versions this will be the first gui made with that in mind to be the dominant part of the new items in the newest version to be arriving shortly.

    With two strong running versions of Windows in recent memory(Vista, 7) MS is having a mind tie on "this would be the time to.. ex -per -i -ment... with something totally new" since people still have two previous versions to fall back on for the time being as well as looking at the types of potentials or problematic marketplace issues a touchscreen version would be facing in the long run.

    Two of the main problems 8 faces as far as the Modern is concerned is 1)How MS is bringing it in while at the same time stripping away the familiar interface commonly seen in Windowss since Legacy days. Amd 2) MS didn't have any ideas of how the Modern should look along with the total rearrangement and divisions for system and other settings between popup menus and hidden toolbars leaving no room for any appearance changes as far the Start while the Lock screen allows for wallpaper and photo changes.

    Apparently the MS thinking all along was not paying too much attention to details but how they could toss something on the mobile and touchscreen market places without any real foresight of what would be appealing to the average consumer. The gambit is on how much market share they can clustter and not the actual long term effects on the OS as far as the desktop.

    "Remember we have to hamper the Fruit company and that search engine whatever OS as well with our efforts here!" while the typical user sits back and thinks to his or her self... "give me a break!"
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  7. #1277


    Quote Originally Posted by Max Peck View Post
    The "one kernel many GUI" approach is exactly what Linux is and look at the penetration IT has in the desktop market. (<2%). Windows has the deep penetration it does because of the consistency of the GUI interface. Yes, they have changed the style of the GUI to some degree (through W7, that is), however the programming API that controls the GUI has remained relatively consistent which is why it is so well understood. The way things are done under the Windows model is not only consistent at the programming level but everyone understands how to use the GUI.
    You said it much better than I did, but that's essentially what I was thinking. Although in the land of Linux, is there really just one kernel left completely intact? It has been my understanding that various flavors of Linux rework a little bit of the kernel, in addition to a different shell/UI. I'm not a Windows developer, but I'd be curious to know if the SDK for W8 appears as a base W7 with added API's (e.g. touch screen). If so, then perhaps a 3rd party could do a better job of managing the schizophrenic interface (trying to be two things at once), making the "desktop" UI mode a bit more traditional from the tablet "Metro" UI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Peck View Post
    The wide-scope changes Microsoft is making to the GUI with Win8 is a monumental risk. Will the existing desktop user-base accept it or will Microsoft have to build a completely new market? I don't think anyone knows the definitive answer to that question. Agreed ... W8 is a "half-thought-out experiment" (in many of our opinions). It's going to be interesting to watch how all this plays out. As a developer I've already stated that I'm sitting this one out for awhile. I've managed to position myself where W8 is pretty irrelevant to me so I'll be able to just observe it without much exposure. Bring me some more popcorn, please.
    It does indeed feel like an experiment. After all, in the business world, you don't introduce radical changes like this. Once people get used to doing things a certain way that works and is reasonably efficient (e.g. the XP/Vista/W7 UI), you don't suddenly change the game on them. People are busy enough as it is than to bother getting familiar with a new UI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night Hawk View Post
    Two of the main problems 8 faces as far as the Modern is concerned is 1)How MS is bringing it in while at the same time stripping away the familiar interface commonly seen in Windowss since Legacy days. Amd 2) MS didn't have any ideas of how the Modern should look along with the total rearrangement and divisions for system and other settings between popup menus and hidden toolbars leaving no room for any appearance changes as far the Start while the Lock screen allows for wallpaper and photo changes.

    Apparently the MS thinking all along was not paying too much attention to details but how they could toss something on the mobile and touchscreen market places without any real foresight of what would be appealing to the average consumer. The gambit is on how much market share they can clustter and not the actual long term effects on the OS as far as the desktop.
    Don't discount MS too much. They do have usability labs and I'm sure they did some marketing analysis. Their belief, quite rightly so, is that mobile computing is going to envelop desktop computing. But in effect, they have given it a higher priority over the desktop user. They're thinking the mobile interface will dominate and desktop interface will be secondary. And so, their idea is to introduce a desktop UI that isn't radically different from the mobile UI. They feel that people won't want to learn two completely different interfaces.

    But what they forget is:

    1. People are already accustomed to multiple interfaces (e.g. phone, navigation, remotes, in addition to computer desktops) and have managed just fine.
    2. It's not about trying to make one cohesive interface across all computing devices, but more about making the most intuitive and efficient UI for each TYPE of user interface. Sure, give them a common theme to help with visual familiarity, but that doesn't mean you have to compromise one for the other.


    That's where W8 went wrong. Metro is geared for mobile. Forcing the design on the desktop user is an annoyance. If you add more navigation steps to get to what you want, you frustrate the user.
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  8. #1278


    I swore I was never going to post on this thread again, but here I go again .....I have everything beaten except temptation!

    I continue to subscribe to this thread and keep up with reading it from time to time.

    I'm not going to attempt to win over anyone that doesn't like or see the potential of 8, for we all have our likes and needs. But, I have to say....it seems that some are attempting to stab this thing to death. It's not going away, for the smart phone and pads (especially iPad) has created a new market called touch. I can't speak for all, but most bought into that market if or when we bought a touch device. Touch is here to stay for sure.

    I don't think MS is the monster some make them out to be. It's a very well established, successful corporation. They didn't get there putting out bad products, nor do I think they intended to with 8. It's not an "experiment" -> If anything, it's a compromise in an attempt to placate everyone. Touch and legacy desktop. I'm sure they went round and round amongst their departments deciding which way was best. Tons of surveys also. They are a company trying to target a market that iMe candy and company is dominating. You know -> That company that surpassed MS in income?!!

    So we have to learn a new system of navigation. What's the big deal? The navies of the world learned a new way when someone finally figured out a way to map the stars. New ways to navigate will always be on the horizon. It seems to me always for the better. I went from 95 to 98 to 98SE to Vista (ugh!) to 7 and now to 8. It all got better to me. I went from a bag phone to a brick to a ?phone to a Razr to a smart phone. It all got better to me.

    I listen to Pros here and have always admitted that 8 isn't up to par for enterprise -> yet. I've seen jimbo and some others give it an honest try at it, only to give up. Rightfully so. Big problem with hierarchical organization of the Start Screen and all apps screen. Then a big problem of multipane and multiple monitors that I read. Can't quite grasp the multipane problem yet, for one can still perform that on the desktop with legacy programs as I saw mdmd attempt to explain in a thread. Perhaps someone can fill me in on that.

    Then I read the full-screen Modern (Metro) app with 1/3 and 2/3 snapping being a problem. Customization of screens, fonts, colors, etc. The list is quite long as we read on and on.

    Bottom line......MS and 8 has a way to go. As a business I think they are targeting the general public and will cater to enterprise as time goes on. 7 will be around for quite a while -> 7 more years I read. Someone just posted that the price of 7 will drop due to 8 release. This is most likely to happen. This will save enterprise money, for what I read is that enterprise is upgrading to it for the most part. Is this not a win/win for all? Enterprise saves $, MS still makes $, and the general public gets a new OS. Is this not a good thing in our faltering economic times?

    Lastly, will anything MS puts out ever be enough for us forumeers? I don't think so, for we are always anticipating the next new thing out of Redmond.
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  9. #1279


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    I swore I was never going to post on this thread again, but here I go again .....I have everything beaten except temptation!

    I'm not going to attempt to win over anyone that doesn't like or see the potential of 8, for we all have our likes and needs. But, I have to say....it seems that some are attempting to stab this thing to death. It's not going away, for the smart phone and pads (especially iPad) has created a new market called touch. I can't speak for all, but most bought into that market if or when we bought a touch device. Touch is here to stay for sure.
    I'm glad you posted, Hippsie. I think you bring up some great points.

    I'm not suggesting that Microsoft has created a flop. Like any major revision to a product that introduces a rather drastic difference to the way it works, there will be adoption issues as well as necessary revisions. Microsoft isn't new to the tablet market, but despite all of their user interface experience, this first incarnation of a "dual purpose" operating system is going to have deficiencies. What they need is a good run through in the real world. True, there has been an extensive beta test program, but your average customer isn't going to be compelled to upset their computer's configuration to try out W8. They'd rather wait. W-eight, get it?

    While I'm sure they probably got a lot of useful responses from beta testers, Microsoft also tends to be very strong minded about their designs. When they start to see the flurry of complaints here and there from the general public, that will help push them towards making the necessary changes. Essentially, they need two modes in this dual operating system--one for the 'average user' and one for the 'power user.' But that's just my take on it. So far from what I've seen, Microsoft is in for a rough ride through this first stage. Maybe it'll smooth out after SP1. I hope so... we need a good solid set of choices in operating systems, and Windows is a very important player in the computer arena. W8 being well designed, a nice succession from W7, is essential.

    I'm tempted to be an early adopter, but I need a larger hard drive to run a suitable partition for dual boot. And then I'll give it a go... and try to give useful feedback to Microsoft.
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  10. #1280


    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    I didn't see an awesome video in rtm
    It was far from awesome, it was about frame showing that you could click in any corner and bring up menus...although the video only showed the arrow going to the upper right corner...even though it kept repeating you could go to "any" corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    They didn't get there putting out bad products, nor do I think they intended to with 8. It's not an "experiment" -> If anything, it's a compromise in an attempt to placate everyone.

    But not everything is a sure fine success either. Windows Vista and ME certainly come to mind as systems which weren't all that great.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    So we have to learn a new system of navigation. What's the big deal?

    Some find it not very intuitive, or efficient. Just because it's new doesn't mean it's better. I've learned how to use it, but just because I know how, doesn't mean I like it better or want it this way.


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Then I read the full-screen Modern (Metro) app with 1/3 and 2/3 snapping being a problem. Customization of screens, fonts, colors, etc. The list is quite long as we read on and on.

    Yes, the 320px snapping option and only allowing 2 metro apps to share 1 screen make them a complete no-go for me in nearly every instance. I have large monitors and multiple things open, ALWAYS.
    Last edited by pparks1; 15 Oct 2012 at 16:00.
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This will be Microsofts biggest ever flop, far bigger than Vista.
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