Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


This will be Microsofts biggest ever flop, far bigger than Vista.

  1. #1191


    DeLand, FL
    Posts : 380
    Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit


    Quote Originally Posted by phailyoor View Post
    Want a new computer after october? Then it's forced onto you.
    Actually, that won't be the case unless you must pick your computer up at Best Buy or something. If you order it online from Dell or HP (or whoever else) you'll be able to select the O/S as you order it. I've bought Dell systems for years and the O/S selection can always be made at that time. I doubt that Dell will force you to buy Win8 ... they'll offer "7" for a long time yet.

    -Max :-)

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #1192


    Posts : 738
    1st W10 Professional x64/W7 Ultimate x64 - 2nd Remote system: W10 Insider Builds/W7 Professional


    Actually what he was referring to is simply walking into a retail store and picking out a new desktop model seen on display with 8 preinstalled already. You buy as is not special order which OS will be on it. Dell started offering the choice of OS only after Vista sales slumped since they were also one of the OEMs who was skippy on providing the actual 2gb mimimum staying the erronic MS 512mb. Even with XP 2gb made a large difference!

    As far as labeling 8 the best or worst OS is yet to be seen since some areas in 8 have actually seen some innovations while others sadly lack in too many ways! Security comes in top of the list if you want to consider a new Lock screen never seen before. This allows more then simply a password but now allows for a pin code or photo. A revised and updated MS Security Essentials to replace the useless Windows Defender with an av program included that actually offers malware detection but is still not available for download renamed to WD.

    W8 will also bring in Hyper X support being something new on the horizon as well as improvements with ARM. Again these are the Pros seen at the core level while the Cons start with Media Center gone! dvd and video playback support for the WMP available since 95! no less now will be gone! The conventional form of desktop interface that typically would be improved on has now been stripped away for what? "Modern" or what should be more accurately labeled "Mobile touchscren gui" to replace it!

    As far as customization that automatically enters a different ball park to begin with there. Regardless of which version or OS in fact someone will always be looking for some way to make a few of their own changes by choice no less. But how MS is introducing a major face lift in 8 however hasn't been focused on any gradual weaning towards something progresslively newer but a total upheavel of the things that have been working all along!
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  3. #1193


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Hi there
    the Achilles heel of W8 is actually not really the hideous (for some) metro interface but its unfriendliness to large screens (say 32 inch etc and bigger), multi-tasking where you have several windows open concurrently on the same screen and multi monitor users.

    Metro only works in full screen or that ridiculous "Half width" thingy (half baked is probably a better word for it) and some of the MS metro apps don't look too good on really large screens either. The most decent app from Ms (IMO) was the Finance one with a proper live tile which could link you to all sorts of places - but operating this in full screen mode on a desktop is a pain since if you are actually doing any serious Market trading you want to see several sources of information simultaneously (Multiple and windowed screens !!).

    W8 let's face it was designed for small computers (call them tablets but the newer models due to appear complete with docking stations etc are in effect a small PC) and smart phones and for this - no problem whatsoever - people are used to the tiiled look and know how to navigate and use applications. You are not multi-tasking either (generally) on a mobile phone - although you could have something like a music app running in the background while doing a google search or using an e-reader app. You are still effectively using one window at a time in single task mode.

    However a WORKSTATION is NOT a mobile phone and people using these multi-task as a matter of course in their work. You might have 4 spreadsheets open, 3 sessions of IE, a window with a list of emails, a back end ERP application say like SAP ERP R/3 or CRM etc where-another load of windows needs to be open simultaneously etc.

    One CAN organise some of this to be run sensibly on W8 - but it's a struggle -- I can manage W8 on a home computer but I'd really HATE it at work - I just don't see any way I could even begin to THINK of running it.

    Ms has gone for a risky strategy here - they seem to be saying-- let's forget about the corporate users at the moment - they'll stick with W7 for at least the next 2 years or so and aren't in any case going to switch to Linux - so where else do they have to go -- so we can toss out our -essentially Mobile--OS out to newish consumers who by now have got used to using smartphones etc so the basic concepts and design of W8 would be familiar to them. We can then iron out all the problems and perhaps make this OS "Fit for Purpose" as a desktop OS too by the next release - whether by changing the metro functionality or by an enhanced desktop mode -- who knows.

    It just conceivably could work - they could actually Fork windows into 2 -- Desktop / corporate and Mobile. I rather suspect there probably were some serious discussions along these lines at the start of the W8 project -- but the "Two OS idea" obviously lost (for now).

    In its current form it certainly is anything OTHER than fit for purpose for the desktop environment I outlined such as 4 spreadsheets open, 3 sessions of IE, a window with a list of emails, a back end ERP application say like SAP ERP R/3 or CRM etc -- an everyday occurrence for me -- not exaggerated at all. Eeven just the SAP backend can have 5 user sessions on each of DEV, ACC, and PROD which is usual in that type of environment and then if you connect to DIFFERENT systems -- again a whole load more windows. !!!!

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #1194


    Ms has gone for a risky strategy here - they seem to be saying-- let's forget about the corporate users at the moment - they'll stick with W7 for at least the next 2 years or so and aren't in any case going to switch to Linux - so where else do they have to go -- so we can toss out our -essentially Mobile--OS out to newish consumers who by now have got used to using smartphones etc so the basic concepts and design of W8 would be familiar to them. We can then iron out all the problems and perhaps make this OS "Fit for Purpose" as a desktop OS too by the next release - whether by changing the metro functionality or by an enhanced desktop mode -- who knows.

    It just conceivably could work - they could actually Fork windows into 2 -- Desktop / corporate and Mobile. I rather suspect there probably were some serious discussions along these lines at the start of the W8 project -- but the "Two OS idea" obviously lost (for now).

    In its current form it certainly is anything OTHER than fit for purpose for the desktop environment I outlined such as 4 spreadsheets open, 3 sessions of IE, a window with a list of emails, a back end ERP application say like SAP ERP R/3 or CRM etc -- an everyday occurrence for me -- not exaggerated at all. Eeven just the SAP backend can have 5 user sessions on each of DEV, ACC, and PROD which is usual in that type of environment and then if you connect to DIFFERENT systems -- again a whole load more windows. !!!!

    Cheers
    jimbo
    I think it to be a good post and very well stated, jimbo.

    This has been my line of thinking for quite some time now. I think one has to look at it from a business viewpoint aiming at markets. I think MS is caught between a rock and a hard place here, especially in a market timing aspect. On one hand they have all you IT Pros and enterprise to consider. On the other is a market that smart phone companies with their OSs, iMe Fruit Company, and others started along with the backing of a general public market purchasing it called -> “touch”.

    What would any of us do when faced with that predicament? Would we continue as we always did or do we chase new markets and expand? It is a big risk as you stated. They are already getting one of the backlashes of this risky decision. The bad publicity of IT/Tech writers and the Pros themselves. I read once that bad publicity is still publicity. May be true. Could work for a politician, but perhaps not an OS. Instead of the song "Georgia on my mind" it's "I've got Vista on my mind." A big hurdle for MS to try and overcome. Not sure why, for the most part, that they don't answer to this type of publicity unless they do not want to divulge more of their plan.

    I read and try to comprehend what you Pros and PUs post. Never mind the "Modern" style or how it looks. I think that will work out in added cosmetic options. It's the multi-screen and multi-pane problem, it seems to me, they desperately need to work out. Perhaps an SP1 or a 9?
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  5. #1195


    I think it's a major failure to launch an UI which is as unfinished as w8 desktop UI. 2013 is no place for an ugly UI any more. I have absolutely no faith in MS any more in this regard (maybe if the get a new CEO). it's really a personal thing yes, because I have to work with this every day.

    otherwise I think it's really ok and don't think that metro is a bad thing as long as you have a full desktop.
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  6. #1196


    Posts : 1
    Windows 8


    I thought I would add my tuppence worth.

    I have been working in IT for about 30 years in a variety of technical and managerial roles. Throughout that time I have witnessed the release of many operating systems. In almost... no.... make that absolutely every instance, there have been those who suggest "its the worst thing ever", "it will never succeed" and a few not so pleasant comments. Might I suggest that you give products a "proper" chance before you write them off. Okay, they don't do everything "you" want. My local Asda/Walmart sells loads of things I personally cant stand. That doesn't make it a bad store, quite the contrary, it suggest they're catering for as many people as possible. We all have the option to choose what we want and ignore what we don't want.

    As for Windows 8. I have installed the RTM version on my Asus EP121 tablet (using it now) and my opinion is WOW, this is just brilliant. Yes there are things I would improve or add but that's true of every operating system I've ever used on any device. For an RTM product it is outstanding and the way ahead for certain. Well done Microsoft (before you ask, no I don't work for them).

    Ever noticed how you dislike the new model of a car when its released but it grows on you? Or how over time a certain music track becomes your favourite? Give 8 a chance.

    Cheers.

    BC
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #1197


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by bconnelly View Post
    I thought I would add my tuppence worth.

    I have been working in IT for about 30 years in a variety of technical and managerial roles. Throughout that time I have witnessed the release of many operating systems. In almost... no.... make that absolutely every instance, there have been those who suggest "its the worst thing ever", "it will never succeed" and a few not so pleasant comments. Might I suggest that you give products a "proper" chance before you write them off. Okay, they don't do everything "you" want. My local Asda/Walmart sells loads of things I personally cant stand. That doesn't make it a bad store, quite the contrary, it suggest they're catering for as many people as possible. We all have the option to choose what we want and ignore what we don't want.

    As for Windows 8. I have installed the RTM version on my Asus EP121 tablet (using it now) and my opinion is WOW, this is just brilliant. Yes there are things I would improve or add but that's true of every operating system I've ever used on any device. For an RTM product it is outstanding and the way ahead for certain. Well done Microsoft (before you ask, no I don't work for them).

    Ever noticed how you dislike the new model of a car when its released but it grows on you? Or how over time a certain music track becomes your favourite? Give 8 a chance.

    Cheers.

    BC
    Hi there

    Please then explain to me how I'd use this when I need to logon to several different SAP ERP systems as I've pointed out in my post above.

    The real issue here is that some people just have NO IDEA what other people are running on their desktops and therefore any suggestions they might make are usually totally WRONG.

    Please don't take offence here but I suggest you google for SAP ERP and then you might begin to understand the sort of problems these type of applications can have when trying to run them from a W8 desktop.

    This is 99% of the problem with W8 interface -- most Windows developers don't seem to have a clue about the applications corporate users run -- I'll bet SAP R/3 ERP probably means nothing to most of them.

    Once you start looking at these types of apps then you should understand the total design flaw with W8 as it currently stands for these type of users.

    Note I can (with a bit of difficulty) run W8 just fine from a desktop on a HOME computer -- but a corporate one with applications like SAP R/3 ERM / SAP / CRM -- well forget it. !!. Metro won't even begin to be fit for purpose here - especially as a developer where you need at least the usual classic DEV / ACC / PROD environments for working -- and often each of these can have say 5 windows concurrently open.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #1198


    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo
    The real issue here is that some people just have NO IDEA what other people are running on their desktops
    Exactely. That's what Microsoft failed to understand (or deliberately ignored). The advantage of multiple windows is to drag&drop, copy-paste, compare views etc... How there can be poeple to think that an UI which removes all these advantages could be successful?
    The argument "you can always go to the Desktop" is by itself a demonstration that the Metro UI concept, that the Metro UI for-every-one is flawed. If I can always go to the Desktop, then why do I need Metro for? And why I can't run Metro apps in resizeable windows with the desktop on the background just like any other apps?
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  9. #1199


    Posts : 92
    Windows 10 (64 bit)


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Note I can (with a bit of difficulty) run W8 just fine from a desktop on a HOME computer -- but a corporate one with applications like SAP R/3 ERM / SAP / CRM -- well forget it. !!. Metro won't even begin to be fit for purpose here - especially as a developer where you need at least the usual classic DEV / ACC / PROD environments for working -- and often each of these can have say 5 windows concurrently open.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    The whole point of an OS is to make using it an enjoyable experience not to figure out way to make it work. The saying goes if it ain't broke don't fix it. In my opinion they took a great desktop interface and ruined it!
    Last edited by PaulGo; 09 Sep 2012 at 21:52.
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  10. #1200


    Posts : 738
    1st W10 Professional x64/W7 Ultimate x64 - 2nd Remote system: W10 Insider Builds/W7 Professional


    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Note I can (with a bit of difficulty) run W8 just fine from a desktop on a HOME computer -- but a corporate one with applications like SAP R/3 ERM / SAP / CRM -- well forget it. !!. Metro won't even begin to be fit for purpose here - especially as a developer where you need at least the usual classic DEV / ACC / PROD environments for working -- and often each of these can have say 5 windows concurrently open.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    The whole point of an OS is to make using it an enjoyable experience not to figure out way to make it work. The saying goes if it ain't broke don't fix it. In my opinion the took a great desktop interface and ruined it!
    MS "broke it"! The attempt at crossing platforms with this type of non transition upheaval of the traditional desktop to suit mobile needs efffectively trashes the idea of the desktop OS for the non mobile users. And like I was saying previously they improved things like security with a degree of innovation there adding in a new "Windows Shade" to unlock and open up the new "Windows". But sadly placed an interactive splash at the forefront most are finding incoherent to the Windows desktop.

    For large lcds and dual monitors a 3rd party app like RocketDock would likely save the day for the multitasker while that should be something more of an optional 3rd party element not a requirement to get past the "Modern" effect. When someone called the Modern another desktop that was an error since you cannont and don't minimize windows and apps to the Start screen. Those minimize to where? The task bar once you are at the actual desktop or to a 3rd party addon like the one named above.

    jimbo45 called it correct about 8 being too awkward for most workstations outside of the retail environment where touchscreens are far more commonly seen for cash registers as well as products on display. The concept of retail as well as agenda is what? to sell! whatever is sold including new products like the latest OEM desktops, laptops, Tablets, IPhones, IPads, Kindle Fires, etc. and the list goes on and on!

    Besides Samsung Sony and other OEMs will now be developing their own verions of the traditional Start orb and menu to satisfy actual consumer wants and needs knowing what sells! MS should have taken a serious look into what the retailers already know. Instead they are playing the big "roll the dice" on whether or not 8 will end up being a huge flop!

    When looking around the various forums not just here at 8F or over at SF the majority of users roughly 90% are opposed to upgrading out of the present version into 8 while some 5% will chance it and the other small percentage simply love the new look without the past experience of coming up from the Legacy days. The other percentage will simply end up dual booting two Windows in order to retain what they already have working for them.

    From the personal perspective here 7 is already doing everything I need while the look at what was coming is part of the testing experience whlie the findings about 8 are divided. It comes down to Pros and Cons each time as far as seeing innovations applied in security and hardware detection/setup while 8 is still lacking heavily in driver support which wasn't stressed by MS like it had been to OEMs for 7.

    If you regularly have multiple windows and apps open the need to keep bringing up a full screen(labeled ugly by all too many) Start screen for each item becomes a task maker and tedious over seeing a narrow dropdown or dropup list of options and programs menu from a Start orb. The idea of popups for Start and Crawler when hovering the cursor over certain spots fails when you are trying to work on something and one of those pops up just because you had the cursor too close while working on something else and didn't even want anything to appear!
    (Aggravation for the multitasker once more. "aw that stupid tool bar in the way again..!" )

    It's certainly not from the lack of want by many to see the Start orb, menu and Programs menu upgraded in some way like the transition from Classic to Aero as the Vista example of options. A totally new look with some new ideas on customizing while still retaining even in a much newer form would have gone over far better then to simply say "We MS have decided you will now see an Android-Tablet form of gui instead!" without "any" options for some type of traditional desktop without 3rd party help.

    It certainly will effect the IT dept.s as jimbo45 pointed out. If you work with any type of development such as CAD or work such as engineering, education, productive office worker, etc. or simply the at home enthusiast who multitasks often the drastic gambit by MS will likely prove to be a catastrophy. While many tweak the OS as a personal option 8 will be the version where "Tweaking things" with 3rd party help will be the mandate!
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This will be Microsofts biggest ever flop, far bigger than Vista.
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