Solved Here's what I think would fix Windows 8:

Wrend

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Here's what I think would have worked with Windows 8:

Instead of replacing the Start menu with "Metro" (or whatever they're calling it now), I think they should have replaced the desktop background and icons with it as a customizable active desktop, where you could still have your app icons, only they could be these more active icons as in "Metro," and they should have left the Start menu alone.

I think this would have gone over a lot better, and I might have eventually updated to it instead of deciding to skip Windows 8 altogether whenever I can, waiting for what's next and hopefully better.

So this is what I think might have helped Windows 8 be accepted. Let me know what you think. (But this isn't a discussion about the validity of my opinion one way or the other. Windows 8 isn't something "I need to get used to;" it unfortunately is something "I don't want to use.")
 
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All these ideas people express about how to make Windows 8 better are all based on a single misunderstanding.

Metro is *NOT* Win32. It's not just a new UI. It's an entirely different operating system that runs side-by-side the old Win32 operating system. You can't just make Win32 and Metro work together in the same application (the desktop). This is the reason that Metro is full screen, because the only way to "share" the two OS's is to have one of them control the monitor. In the case of Windows 8, Metro (it's real name is WinRT for Windows RunTime) owns the monitor it is currently on. If you see a desktop on that monitor, it's actually a metro application that views the desktop, sort of like Remote Desktop. This is why you can "close" the desktop window by using alt-f4, or moving the mouse cursor to the top and dragging it to the bottom. (if you have multiple displays, you will notice that you can't do that with the other monitors)

Metro apps are physically separate from Win32/Desktop apps. They are different OS's and they cannot really work together very well, other than some really terrible hacks (such as how IE is able to display in Metro mode).

Keeping this simple concept in mind, you will find you have a greater understanding of why Windows 8 works the way it does.
 

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This thread isn't so much about how Windows 8 works as it is about how Windows 8 should work (in my and your guys' opinions).

So, for clarity, title changed to: "Here's what I think would have worked with Windows 8:"
 

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And my point is that it's more or less impossible for it to work that way, given what it is.
 

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I have contended that they took what should have been done through Gadgets and replaced it with Metro.
However, there was no real control over gadgets, this I think they could have worked on more.

Apps that would have run like Gadgets from the desktop (not full screen, but windowed) with a Store App that opened on the desktop (similar to Pokki) would have been much more accepted I think.

But, the control that MS has now over Apps that are submitted to the App Store are much better and safer than Gadgets were.
The Metro environment is designed for running apps safely. However, there are some apps that I really don't want to run full screen, it's not a deal killer for me. Windows 8 is a pretty nice OS over all. Even with Metro the way it is.

So, coulda been, shoulda been done better? Sure.
Works great as it is? Yes.
 

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And my point is that it's more or less impossible for it to work that way, given what it is.

I see what I'm describing more as just a GUI issue. Surly displaying and scrolling through gridded icons and active rectangular pictures on a screen that also has a pop up menu in the bottom left corner and a task bar along the bottom isn't that hard to accomplish for a world class OS designer.

Nothing runs on the screen. It's just displayed there.


Yeah, that's along the lines of what I'm talking about. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
 

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All these ideas people express about how to make Windows 8 better are all based on a single misunderstanding.

Metro is *NOT* Win32. It's not just a new UI. It's an entirely different operating system that runs side-by-side the old Win32 operating system. You can't just make Win32 and Metro work together in the same application (the desktop). This is the reason that Metro is full screen, because the only way to "share" the two OS's is to have one of them control the monitor. In the case of Windows 8, Metro (it's real name is WinRT for Windows RunTime) owns the monitor it is currently on. If you see a desktop on that monitor, it's actually a metro application that views the desktop, sort of like Remote Desktop. This is why you can "close" the desktop window by using alt-f4, or moving the mouse cursor to the top and dragging it to the bottom. (if you have multiple displays, you will notice that you can't do that with the other monitors)

Metro apps are physically separate from Win32/Desktop apps. They are different OS's and they cannot really work together very well, other than some really terrible hacks (such as how IE is able to display in Metro mode).

Keeping this simple concept in mind, you will find you have a greater understanding of why Windows 8 works the way it does.

And my point is that it's more or less impossible for it to work that way, given what it is.


Mystere ▬ Thanks for great answers around these forums. They are usually simple & clear enough so that even those of us with only some pc knowledge can actually understand. Without going to google for definition of unpopular word.

I've actually had no problems with 8. I knew it works the way it does. Now I know why.

You make a great teacher.

Ron
 

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Wrend, now that you have written that the Microsoft team will redesign Windows 8 the way you wrote. LOL. I mean they did it that way because they decided to do it that way. They wanted the mobile phone design on your computer.
Mystere, If Metro can launch Win32 apps what prevented Microsoft from making it look like a real desktop? ...other than ideology?
Anyway running two OSes at the same time is terribly complicated and ineffective. At least they should have allowed Metro apps to run into DOS Prompt windows, or allocating only part of the screen while the rest of the screen is being used by Windows. I can imagine Metro apps running in a division of the monitor screen equal to 25% of its width.
 

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Wrend, now that you have written that the Microsoft team will redesign Windows 8 the way you wrote. LOL. I mean they did it that way because they decided to do it that way. They wanted the mobile phone design on your computer.
Mystere, If Metro can launch Win32 apps what prevented Microsoft from making it look like a real desktop? ...other than ideology?
Anyway running two OSes at the same time is terribly complicated and ineffective. At least they should have allowed Metro apps to run into DOS Prompt windows, or allocating only part of the screen while the rest of the screen is being used by Windows. I can imagine Metro apps running in a division of the monitor screen equal to 25% of its width.

Are you sure about 25%?
Have you tried opening
  1. Weather app from start screen
  2. Grab it at top & drag it to left or right edge
  3. Press Widows key
  4. Open another app

Sometimes we just have to accept things as they are.
I have a kitchen stove that burns Natural gas or LP gas.
But I cannot run the oven off LP gas while using Natural gas for the top burners.
 

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Mystere, If Metro can launch Win32 apps what prevented Microsoft from making it look like a real desktop? ...other than ideology?

Indeed.
They could have written Metro to run in 100x100 windows if they had felt like it.
 

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Wrend, now that you have written that the Microsoft team will redesign Windows 8 the way you wrote. LOL. I mean they did it that way because they decided to do it that way. They wanted the mobile phone design on your computer...

Yeah, I hear you. Not likely to happen, but I (and probably many other people) might actually want to get Windows 8 if the "mobile" display features where more integrated into a more standard Windows desktop GUI. Even if my "monitor" was a touch screen, it would generally be very impractical to use it that way.

Maybe they're trying to get people to remote desktop in from tablets or something? (I've thought about doing this on my Nexus 7.)
 

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I have two problems with this thread ...

First, in order to discuss what is needed to "fix" Win8, you have to first agree that Win8 is "broken" -- and those folks here, and other places, that LOVE Win8 will never admit that it is broken. So, having this whole discussion is essentially a waste of time.

Second, if is very UNLIKELY, that after investing all this time and money in Win8, MS is going to make ANY changes to how Win/RT works and/or how the Windows 8 Store Apps work. Again, discussing such changes is essentially a waste of time.

If we REALLY want to have a discussion, it could be about what Windows 9 ("Blue"?) MIGHT work -- but given that is years off, and the MS made major changes during the evolution of Win8 from first "beta" into "final" form, what is the point of having such discussions this early?
 

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I have two problems with this thread ...

If we REALLY want to have a discussion, it could be about what Windows 9 ("Blue"?) MIGHT work -- but given that is years off, and the MS made major changes during the evolution of Win8 from first "beta" into "final" form, what is the point of having such discussions this early?

Maybe...

At Microsoft, in a deep dark chamber, there are minions reading THIS thread & similar ones from all over the globe.

Then they send suggested ideas to the Creator(s) who contemplate them and decide whether to implement them or not.

Said Microsoft Operating Systems Creator or Creators work in mysterious ways...
:think:
 

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I had previously changed the title on the first post to "Here's what I think would have worked with Windows 8:" to be a little less confrontational and more along the lines of what I'm talking about, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to update the thread title.

This is just my opinion. There's no need to defend this opinion, nor is there any need to argue with other people that like the new GUI style as it is based on our own preferences.

But just the same, and whether any of us agree with them and their reasons or not, there are a lot of people out there that aren't too keen on Windows 8 (including me). To deny that is unrealistic, and I think it is something that should be publicly addressed in more specific terms, and hopefully eventually solved one way or another, even if that just means waiting for Windows 9.

Granted, this thread probably isn't going to accomplish much of anything other than to give us a place to discuss these preferences and ideas. Hopefully we can continue to do so in a civil way.
 

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I have two problems with this thread ...

First, in order to discuss what is needed to "fix" Win8, you have to first agree that Win8 is "broken" -- and those folks here, and other places, that LOVE Win8 will never admit that it is broken. So, having this whole discussion is essentially a waste of time.

Second, if is very UNLIKELY, that after investing all this time and money in Win8, MS is going to make ANY changes to how Win/RT works and/or how the Windows 8 Store Apps work. Again, discussing such changes is essentially a waste of time.

If we REALLY want to have a discussion, it could be about what Windows 9 ("Blue"?) MIGHT work -- but given that is years off, and the MS made major changes during the evolution of Win8 from first "beta" into "final" form, what is the point of having such discussions this early?

From what I've read, Blue Widows 9 may be released as early as 3rd or 4th ¼. Not so many yrs off.
Since I have no problems with start button or navigating 8 the only thing I can think of to fix it is moving that clock from lock screen to logon screen. In the meantime, I refuse to lose sleep over it.
 

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Windows 8 should have a Windows Update to restore the ability to change 3D objects like scroll bar stuff & window BG colors, etc. like in XP.
I don't like gray scroll bars.

Also CSS is screwed up in win 8.
I have a website that displays this CSS code perfectly in earlier versions of Windows -

Code:
[/B][TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]<!-- START HERE TO COPY & PASTE THIS CSS CODE AFTER YOUR TITLE TAG TO MAKE THE SCROLLBAR CHANGE COLOR -->[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]<STYLE type="text/css">[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]BODY {[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]	SCROLLBAR-FACE-COLOR: #000000; SCROLLBAR-HIGHLIGHT-COLOR: #006400; SCROLLBAR-SHADOW-COLOR: #006400; SCROLLBAR-3DLIGHT-COLOR: #ff0000; SCROLLBAR-ARROW-COLOR: #ff0000; SCROLLBAR-TRACK-COLOR: #a0522d; SCROLLBAR-DARKSHADOW-COLOR: #000000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]}[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]<!--[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]    A { text-decoration:none }[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]    -->[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]</STYLE>[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]<!--THE CSS SCROLLBAR COLOR CHANGER CODE STOPS HERE------>[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[B]


In Windows 8 this doesn't work.
:(

And the colors on my site do not display properly.

I use CSS for link colors.

Are you listening Microsoft ?
Give us an Update or Service Pack, please !
Thank you.

Think of your Bottom Line.
Happy customers are "spending money on your products" customers.
People can choose Linux or something else if YOU upset them enough...

 

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If Windows 8 and Windows RT are completely different OSes, then:

1. Why can't just Windows 8 be installed for those who do not want the RT experience?

2. How is it that this is possible: Windows RT jailbreak tool unleashed online | Microsoft - CNET News?

The tool takes advantage of a hack revealed earlier this week by someone identified only as clrokr. In a blog, clrokr explained how he was able to change a value in the Windows RT kernel to bypass certain restrictions put in place by Microsoft. Those restrictions determine what type of applications RT can run, such as Windows Store apps and desktop apps.

3. Why are people saying this: Jailbroken Windows RT Devices Running Ported Windows Desktop Apps | Geeky Gadgets

When Microsoft created their Windows RT operating system, they basically used the Windows 8 OS but cut it down to run on devices equipped with ARM-based chips instead of x86 processors, and will only run apps installed from the Windows Store, until now.

Are our forum Microsoft representatives giving us the full story?
 

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Windows 8 should have a Windows Update to restore the ability to change 3D objects like scroll bar stuff & window BG colors, etc. like in XP.
I don't like gray scroll bars.

Also CSS is screwed up in win 8.
I have a website that displays this CSS code perfectly in earlier versions of Windows -

Code:
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]<!-- START HERE TO COPY & PASTE THIS CSS CODE AFTER YOUR TITLE TAG TO MAKE THE SCROLLBAR CHANGE COLOR -->
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]<STYLE type="text/css">
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]BODY {
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]    SCROLLBAR-FACE-COLOR: #000000; SCROLLBAR-HIGHLIGHT-COLOR: #006400; SCROLLBAR-SHADOW-COLOR: #006400; SCROLLBAR-3DLIGHT-COLOR: #ff0000; SCROLLBAR-ARROW-COLOR: #ff0000; SCROLLBAR-TRACK-COLOR: #a0522d; SCROLLBAR-DARKSHADOW-COLOR: #000000
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]}
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]<!--
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]    A { text-decoration:none }
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]    -->
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]</STYLE>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: webkit-line-number"][/TD]
[TD="class: webkit-line-content"]<!--THE CSS SCROLLBAR COLOR CHANGER CODE STOPS HERE------>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



In Windows 8 this doesn't work.
:(

And the colors on my site do not display properly.

I use CSS for link colors.

Are you listening Microsoft ?
Give us an Update or Service Pack, please !
Thank you.

Think of your Bottom Line.
Happy customers are "spending money on your products" customers.
People can choose Linux or something else if YOU upset them enough...


I really wanted to see the scroll bar out of all things to be changed in Windows 8 from 7. The idea was to have it with the Aero design, now the metareo design of the Desktop in 8, so one could have crimson red windows, crimson red Taskbar, and a crimson red scroll bar.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 8.1 Pro
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS
    CPU
    AMD FX 8320
    Motherboard
    Crosshair V Formula-Z
    Memory
    16 gig DDR3
    Graphics Card(s)
    ASUS R9 270
    Screen Resolution
    1440x900
    Hard Drives
    1 TB Seagate Barracuda (starting to hate Seagate)
    x2 3 TB Toshibas
    Windows 8.1 is installed on a SanDisk Ultra Plus 256 GB
    PSU
    OCZ 500 watt
    Case
    A current work in progres as I'll be building the physical case myself. It shall be fantastic.
    Cooling
    Arctic Cooler with 3 heatpipes
    Keyboard
    Logitech K750 wireless solar powered keyboard
    Mouse
    Microsoft Touch Mouse
    Browser
    Internet Explorer 11
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender, but I might go back on KIS 2014
If Windows 8 and Windows RT are completely different OSes, then:

1. Why can't just Windows 8 be installed for those who do not want the RT experience?

2. How is it that this is possible: Windows RT jailbreak tool unleashed online | Microsoft - CNET News?

The tool takes advantage of a hack revealed earlier this week by someone identified only as clrokr. In a blog, clrokr explained how he was able to change a value in the Windows RT kernel to bypass certain restrictions put in place by Microsoft. Those restrictions determine what type of applications RT can run, such as Windows Store apps and desktop apps.

3. Why are people saying this: Jailbroken Windows RT Devices Running Ported Windows Desktop Apps | Geeky Gadgets

When Microsoft created their Windows RT operating system, they basically used the Windows 8 OS but cut it down to run on devices equipped with ARM-based chips instead of x86 processors, and will only run apps installed from the Windows Store, until now.

Are our forum Microsoft representatives giving us the full story?

I don't get it.

Windows 8 can VERY EASILY not become a WinRT experience with five minutes of time.

I'm going to guess the reason why no Desktop apps are allowed in Windows 8 RT is simply because of battery life concerns, and processing limitations. An ARM processor already gets kind of taxed when you open all the Office apps and multiple tabs in IE at one and switching around as it is, if you added something like a video converter on the Desktop or maybe if you're absurd, Photoshop, it'd be locked up. Also, Microsoft has said and signaled that they're leaving Desktop development behind, not because it's a marketing ploy or monetary ploy (at least not directly), it's because they feel that Windows will become further and further less relevant in the new computing and input environment that Windows 7 obviously didn't work out on; that being tablet and touch. A familiar interface doesn't work on a non-familiar device and a non-familiar input method that Windows hasn't really been on in the mainstream.

Of course this needs work, it's not perfect and it can be much better. Take a look at Windows 95, it took about 15 years to fully mature into Windows 7, which is arguably the BEST version of Windows there has been. Hopefully, it doesn't take 15 years for Windows 8 to mature into a great version. :)
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 8.1 Pro
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS
    CPU
    AMD FX 8320
    Motherboard
    Crosshair V Formula-Z
    Memory
    16 gig DDR3
    Graphics Card(s)
    ASUS R9 270
    Screen Resolution
    1440x900
    Hard Drives
    1 TB Seagate Barracuda (starting to hate Seagate)
    x2 3 TB Toshibas
    Windows 8.1 is installed on a SanDisk Ultra Plus 256 GB
    PSU
    OCZ 500 watt
    Case
    A current work in progres as I'll be building the physical case myself. It shall be fantastic.
    Cooling
    Arctic Cooler with 3 heatpipes
    Keyboard
    Logitech K750 wireless solar powered keyboard
    Mouse
    Microsoft Touch Mouse
    Browser
    Internet Explorer 11
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender, but I might go back on KIS 2014
The point about my post was not about what can and can't be done, but questioned the statement that 8 and RT are completely separate OSes.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows Phone 6, Windows CE 5, Windows Vista x32, Windows 7 x32/x64, Windows 8 x64
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