Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums

Bored with Metro already and other thoughts

  1. #11

    Posts : 18
    windows 8 prof 64 bit

    Luckily most of the problem apps have recently been patched or updated, its just the pain of having to fork out for new releases of apps you bought only a while ago. Norton Ghost is certainly one that does not work and Norton are refusing point blank to update. Bizarrely most of the apps I have had trouble with came from Microsoft. I couldn't get Office 2007 to install properly , it refused to activate, until I was told of the way to edit the registry before it would activate. I had similar issues with Autodesk product installation. We also have several plugin based programs we use that still use dx9 at the core and the only way I have been able to get them to run is using xp compatibility. They work but they aren't using my graphics cards efficiently. Similar problems with old dx9 games I used to play on Windows 7 with no problem. I also use DX11 games too. As soon as anyone creates DX11 equivalents I will be happy to switch. I am on the relevant game forums and no one has a better solution than running in xp or vista compatibility. In theory I should be able to run them in Windows 7 compatibility as they worked under that. It appears to make no difference from just running it in Windows 8. it must do, but its not allowing the apps to run. I have had to replace Norton with Paragon backup with the added bonus of it being free. I had similar problems with Norton anti virus and ghost when I first switched to Windows 7. Needless to say I wont be renewing our subscriptions with Norton next year.

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  2. #12

    Posts : 18
    windows 8 prof 64 bit

    Thanks MDMD yes some people find it easy to use Metro on a PC, I am disabled so that probably does not help. I am glad you like it the more that do the better for Microsoft. As I said I like it on my laptop and enjoy using it. My nervousnous in putting it on our main pcs probably stems from the bad experience we had being early adopters of Windows seven, so I freely admit I am biased on that one. Although the first week was hell I had to reinstall four times before I worked out that there are just some app data folders you don't add privileges to. I am up and running far sooner than I was with Windows 7. I just feel that with so much emphasis being put on Metro, there are a big chunk of users who will wonder what was all the fuss about. Anyway I really have to get some work done. Crashed render farm to sort out. Take care all.
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  3. #13

    Posts : 1,320
    Server 2012 / 8.0

    Hello slowhand818. Welcome to the Eight Forums.

    I am also disabled and retired.

    The DVD player I use > MPC classic < requires an older version of Direct X to run.
    For older gaming... wondering if a re - download of direct X older versions from Microsoft would help.
    Download DirectX End-User Runtime from Official Microsoft Download Center

    Also, Acronis would not work until upgraded to the version compatible with 8.
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  4. #14

    Posts : 79
    Win8.1 Pro 64bit

    Your argument is well put, but I still don't get why people are thinking they must use metro to any great degree. I treat it like the start menu of yore. I access it to start programs I don't always use. Frequently used programs are pinned to taskbar or docked to object dock. As for shutting down that's one area I really think MS screwed the pooch. I created shortcuts on the desktop to reboot and shutdown.

    As to Norton that's strange as I have norton business from our ISP Comast and I have it across multiple OS'es in our family win7 32 and 64 bit and now win8 64 bit and norton runs fine on all of them.
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  5. #15

    Orbiting the Moon
    Posts : 2,975
    Windows 10 x64

    About the OP:

    Great post and I kinda agree with some options.

    Well... apps, apps... I just don't use any for the moment.

    Just using my Win7 programs and luckily no incompatibilities so far.
    Yes Ivy Bridge pc here also had some issues in begin and still has some others.

    Why I use Win8? because it was preinstalled (LOL) NO there are features I do like:
    -The new compatibility mode
    -Hybrid boot
    -No transparency (this is irrelevant, we still get that on the taskbar)
    -some minor changes and new services, driver events...
    -ISO mounting is built-in.

    Start Menu: gets the job done! I like it so far...
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #16

    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    So to history lesson. I had to fight tooth and nail to get Windows eight working on a high end i7 with 16 Gb of RAM. I had to reinstall several times and have been up many nights until the early hours of the morning to get it to work. I am also a very experienced high end user for at least 20 years, not a newbie. Why the lesson? Some people on this forum attack anyone who posts anything negative about Windows 8 as being an idiot who knows nothing about computers.
    I see you have an i7 laptop, from an offbrand manufacturer. Chances are this is just a rebadged OEM bare-bones laptop from Intel or Asus. I can't even see any real technical support on their website, so not sure where you would get the correct drivers.

    Not saying that that should be a problem, it shouldn't. But, laptop systems sometimes are deliberately setup to require that you get special drivers from the vendor. I know many of NVidia's mobile chipsets are not supported by their mainstream drivers (at least not without hacking the .inf files).

    I also have a high end i7 machine, but mine is a desktop rig. I had very few problems, other than issues with the NVidia driver that were solved by installing the WHQL driver.

    In any event. Most people that have problems have them because they do an Upgrade install. I am the first to admit that Microsoft does a terrible job with Upgrade installs, and I personally do not believe Microsoft should offer them. It's impossible for them to test every possible upgrade scenario. Best practice is to do a clean install. Yes, you have to reinstall all your apps. You don't lose any data. But if you have any trouble with the upgrade, you will spend far less time and have far less pain and suffering if you had just done a clean install.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    So you might not like what I say but I do know what I am talking about. Why so sensitive? well I like many others joined this forum for sharing opinions and gaining help. But several users in this forum have no constructive way of disagreeing with what you say other than personally attacking you. I don't mind the fact that people disagree with what I say. The reason for posting posts like this is specifically to generate debate. I am just getting tired of seeing so much personal abuse on this forum. It is very sad.
    Both sides have fault in these discussions. Typically, the posts that start off these long threads are hateful, arrogant, and make claims that are either just not true or are opinion masquerading as fact. The other side tries to correct the misinformation, and argument ensues and tempers flare. If the anti-8 side didn't keep trying to justify their personal opinions with things that aren't true, then things would be totally different.

    I can't argue with your personal opinion. I can't argue if you just don't like the way it looks, or how it acts. That's personal choice. But so many feel the need to make claims like "Impossible to use with a keyboard and mouse" or "a touch screen OS" which simply aren't true. You don't like it, fine. Don't make things up to justify your personal taste, though. (not saying you are doing this, just talking about how those threads tend to devolve).

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    Despite what some users say I still think making safe mode primarily available from within Windows a very poor decision.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "primarily available". There are several ways to get to safe mode, and that's one of them. You can also boot from install media, create a recovery disk ahead of time and boot from that, and F8 will work, but you only have a very small window to activate it (I think this is a bug, rather than designed that way). Worst case.. reset during boot, which causes it to prompt for safe mode after the power cycle. And yes, you can edit the boot menu to add a safe mode boot.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    So in order to keep Windows eight on my machine, I have had no choice but to use a third party start menu. I think it would have been more sensible to make the task bar optional rather than remove it. Microsoft's marketing allegedly found few users who use the task bar. Umm then why are this forum and others full of people asking how to put it back?
    I think you mean "make the start menu optional". This is one of those personal preference things that many people, including yourself, make absolute claims about that are simply absurd. You do not "have no other choice". You CAN use the start page. I do, and I have over 200 desktop apps installed alone, not counting the dozens of metro apps. I have no problem using the start page efficiently, and I don't have a touch screen.

    I find the easiest way to do it is to simply use the search function. Hit the windows key, and start typing the first couple of letters of the app, and it's right there under my selection and I can just hit enter. Takes me 1/2 a second to find any app I want to run. This is FAR more efficient than searching through a hierarchical menu.

    Unfortunately, all too many people (and I assume you're one of them), instantly decide they hate it, and immediately start looking for third party replacement tools to "fix" the problem, when in reality if you just used it a bit, you would figure out your own way to use it best, and it would be a non-issue. People had the same reaction to the XP start menu, switching instantly back to the 2000 style menu, and then again with Vista's new menu. People that actually gave it a chance found there were lots of things to like.

    The fact of the matter is, if you let people switch back to the old way, they will never move to the new way, then you have to continue to support the old way forever. Pretty soon, you are supporting 200 different menus because everyone will have their own favorite from the past options.

    And all that doesn't address the issue of how do you move people to the new style apps if you let them keep going back? What if Apple had kept PowerPC compatibility in OSX? Nobody would have ever written any x86 apps.

    [QUOTE=slowhand818;141811]Within two days I have probably downloaded 95% of all the apps I am ever going to download./QUOTE]

    Assuming you actually will use Metro apps, then that seems unlikely. New apps are released every day, and we've only seen the tip of the iceberg so far. Microsoft is investing heavily in promoting Metro app development. We're going to see a lot of new apps coming, and many of them will be quite new and interesting. To say you've already installed most of the apps you'll ever use is.. well, short sighted to say the least.

    History is filled with people that made similar statements. Thomas J. Watson, the founder of IBM, once famously said "I Think There Is A World Market For Maybe 5 Computers". Things change, and it's probably true that there was a world market for only 5 computers that existed at the time he said that, but public acceptance of computers and computers themselves changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    Whilst it is useful to have my laptop working more like my phone, l see no place for it on my main work pc.
    The apps are also pretty superficial and I am becoming really annoyed by the metro loading screens for the apps. What was the point of making windows boot quickly if you loose any advantage when you start an app. I now find I am hardly ever using them, and tend to jump quickly into the standard desktop. I would say I am easily spending most of my time away from Metro in the desktop.
    Not sure what you mean here. Few apps start instantly, it's just that attention doesn't get drawn to how slow they load by having a splash screen. Most of the startup time for Metro apps is because they depend on some service they connect to over the internet. Not all apps are service based though, and lots of them start very quickly.

    Yes, it's true, lots of apps right now are superficial, and that's because they were done fast to get something out there. We're seeing the development of real apps now, though. When the first iPhone came out, there weren't many non-superficial apps either. Nor were there many android apps at first. It has to mature, and concluding that Metro apps will always be this way is again.. somewhat short sighted.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    The real deal breaker for Metro is having the icons dominate the screen. Everyone in the office including me have individual desktop images, and nearly everyone uses the slide show to show multiple images. What I here you cry... that is still in Windows 8. Yes it is but its in the desktop and so you naturally work in the desktop. We all strive for our screens to look individual, and Metro severely limits this. Granted you will have different tiles in different places but they look the same! I just find Metro so boring to look at and sadly after a few weeks boring to use.
    If you have multiple monitors, you will see your desktop wallpaper all the time. You can also customize the background of the Start page. I'm really not sure I get this argument. Tiles are no different from Icons. Tiles can have any kind of image they want, but so far people have not done much with them. That will change.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    5) Everything that runs on windows 7 will run on windows 8. That's just incorrect. You cant rely on the upgrade advisor or the compatibility centre. Applications are shown as compatible which are not.
    All OS upgrades have compatibility problems, and Windows 8 is no different. But, there are far fewer compatibility issues than even Windows 7 had. The Upgrade Advisor and compatibility center don't know about every app out there. They can only tell you which apps they KNOW are incompatible. Don't confuse not flagging something as incompatible with saying it is compatible.

    Some apps break the rules, and thus they break when an OS change happens. Some apps use undocumented functions, which can also break when an OS changes. They're undocumented because they're likely to break. Some apps dig deep into the OS and insert themselves in the middle of things, those are also likely to break. You can't blame apps that do risky things on Microsoft or the OS.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    6) use of windows 8 on a non touch screen is much easier in desktop than Metro, and it almost forces you out of Metro. It works, but only just. Its certainly not ergonomic or enjoyable.
    I keep hearing claims like this, but nobody can ever substantiate them. Nobody has ever been able to explain in anything other than vague touchy-feely terms. This means it's a personal preference.

    I personally have no issues with either mode. I actually find Metro to be easier to use with a mouse than the desktop, because icons are larger and easier to hit. Tell me, how many times have you been navigating a menu and accidentally moved off it and the menu collapses? Forcing you to start all over. That doesn't happen in Metro. This is particularly important for people with poor hand/eye coordination or poor vision or motor control.

    But again, this is personal preference, and unless you can definitively explain why your argument is anything other that, we're going to have to disagree.

    The fact is, people like different things. If you don't like it, that's fine. But please stop saying things like "use of windows 8 on a non touch screen is much easier in desktop than Metro". You may find that to be the case for you, but it's simply not the case for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    Will the launch succeed? Not sure. Most of our pc suppliers allow us to pick which operating system we want installed so there is no immediate need to jump to 8. The consumer market is different new pcs tend to come preloaded. However the current financial climate is not really suited to people refreshing their pcs to any great extent.
    Which is why Microsoft has adapted Windows to meet different markets. Because PC's are not the only thing people are buying, and are in fact buying phones and tablets at a much greater pace.

    Windows 8's success may depend on the success of the tablets and phones. If those are popular, people are going to likely want to use an OS that works the same, integrates with their other devices, and runs the same apps.

    If the tablets and phones do not succeed, then Windows 8 will have to stand on its own merits. And Metro will be irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    Will they grab a big chunk of the tablet market. Umm probably not people prefer Android and Iphone and visually they leave the windows eight surface for dead. It will sell, but not in the numbers it needs to.
    Windows 8 Tablets come in two flavors. Windows 8 and Windows 8 RT, there's more than just the surface out there. Tablet makers from many companies are coming out with some great devices. Some of them are RT based, some of them are Windows 8 based. 8 based tablets can run all desktop apps as well, something which iPad's and Android devices can't. That's a huge advantage.

    Apple may have the single most popular single phone and tablet, but Android phones and tablets from various manufacturers dwarf the iPhone and iPad in market share. Unless apple starts licensing iOS to third parties, I wouldn't expect any of that to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    So I now have Windows eight an 7. The world did not end, but neither did it become a much better place to be. I initially hated it, but now I have warmed to it. But the only way I could get my laptop working the way I wanted was to restore basic windows functionality.
    That's only because "the way you wanted it" was not Windows 8's way of doing things. Windows 8 is what it is. You either accept it, hack it, or don't buy it. There's not much other option. Complaining in a web forum doesn't change anything, although I suppose it does make you feel better.

    I just don't understand what you hope to gain by it.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    You can attack me all you want, but the content of the forum, is clear to see. Yes the visits to forum going down is probably due to many overcoming their installation issues which is good for windows 8. Yes people who use their laptops or pc's for recreational use really like windows 8. But those of us with deadlines to meet, and major apps to run. Metro gives us very little and for now on Desktops Windows7 is a better choice.
    I find it highly insulting that you claim to speak for everyone else. That you imply that you must not really use a computer for anything if you like Windows 8. That you claim that people that use their computer for real work find Windows 8 unusable. And you wonder why people get passionate when you insult them in these ways.

    I am a software developer, I use my computer 12+ hours a day. I use many apps and have deadlines like anyone else. I have no problem with Windows 8 because I gave it a real chance. Yeah, I was skeptical at first, and it took some time to get accustomed to it. But once I did, I find it MORE productive, faster, and more logical than previous versions (there are of course a few exceptions, as it's certainly not perfect, but then neither was Windows 7 or XP or any other my Galaxy SIII or my iPad).

    Unless you have honestly given it a fair shake, and tried to use it for an extended period of time in it's native methods, then I will continue to discount any opinion about the usability of the interface. You simply cannot objectively judge something if you refuse to use it. And unless you can come up with solid, specific reasons for your claims, I will equally discount them as justifications or personal preference.

    If you used it for 10 minutes and then raced to install third party software to make it look like Windows 7, then you simply have not actually tried. It's relatively easy to tell, because you use assumptions, rather than experience to justify your actions. The vast majority of people that actually USE windows 8 as it was intended, find that their assumptions were wrong. They find that things they initially hated from a knee jerk reaction, are either not so bad or quite good. Even you said your opinions have changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    I applaud Microsoft for trying to do something different, but I think the jump to touch screen is too early, and will ultimately prove to be like the market for 3d TV' where near as big as first predicted.
    Windows 8 is not a touch screen OS. It's a touch screen *FRIENDLY* OS. A touch screen OS would mean it was designed to only be used as a touch screen, which is not the case in Windows 8. Windows 8 was designed to be usable by multiple methods, including touch screens. Previous tablet versions of Windows were not designed to be used in touch screens at all, and they failed miserably.

    Do yourself a favor, and stop thinking of it as a Touch Screen OS. It's not. It's very usable by any input method. It's different, though, and requires some retraining of your habits. It's like buying a new car that has shift paddles rather than a stick on the floor.
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  7. #17

    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    Thanks MDMD yes some people find it easy to use Metro on a PC, I am disabled so that probably does not help.
    I would think that metro would be EASIER to use if you are disabled than the start menu. I suppose it depends on your disability, but I can't imagine any disability that Metro would make more difficult than a menu.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    My nervousnous in putting it on our main pcs probably stems from the bad experience we had being early adopters of Windows seven, so I freely admit I am biased on that one.
    Ok, so you had lots of problems with Windows 7 initially as well (you seem to be the type that has lots of problems where others do not in everything). So why exactly is Windows 8 so different?

    Quote Originally Posted by slowhand818 View Post
    Although the first week was hell I had to reinstall four times before I worked out that there are just some app data folders you don't add privileges to.
    Right, now I understand. You screw around in the internals of the OS immediately, and then wonder why things break. Ok. Methinks your wounds are largely self-inflicted.
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  8. #18

    Posts : 18
    windows 8 prof 64 bit

    Hi Mystere as I said they were only my opinions nothing more. If you disagree with them that is fine.
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  9. #19

    Posts : 5,360
    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin

    You are entitled to your opinions - and to recount your own experiences here. That is what a forum is for.

    You expressed yourself in a normal and acceptable way.

    There are a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings re win 8.

    Mainly because most people don't understand the purpose of it and where MS is heading.

    There is no reason why they should understand that. Quite the opposite.
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  10. #20

    Posts : 1,338
    Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), Linux Mint 17.1 MATE (64 bit)

    Having to edit the Boot Menu to add "Safe Mode" is another stupid innovation in W8.
    A classic example of "change for change's sake".

    I thought that I read that you could access "Safe Mode" using "Shift + F8" at boot up.
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