Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Is Windows 8 a failure ? Time to say bye, bye MSFT ?

  1. #151


    DeLand, FL
    Posts : 380
    Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit


    Hey Mustang!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    Yep I hear where you're coming from and fully comprendo! I'm basically using W8 as W7 literally with Explorer 7 and no Metro period ... to get the improved OS kernel. If I were using MS apps, then I would use Metro, but since I don't use them period, there is no point to it. In fact with the hack Ex7ForW8 start, it boots even faster because none of the Metro stuff is loaded on startup.
    After you use it for awhile you'll simply realize that now your system is fairly future-proof. At some point you may decide you want to experiment or use one or two Metro apps and it will be there waiting to be used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    One point though, if I did have to boot through Metro, and I know it only involves a single click of the keyboard to get to desktop ... that absolutely infuriates me because it's unnecessary!
    Take a deep breath and relax. It's not worth getting infuriated over. Do you want your friends and family to find you at your desk having suffered a heart-attack because you got infuriated over a friggin' mouse click? Come on!

    Microsoft didn't sit around trying to think of ways to piss us off (as much as I might have thought so myself at times). In practice it's just fine. When I open my machine lid in the morning and log in, the "dashboard" is sitting there with a few live tiles displaying some relevant info, weather conditions, etc - stuff I'd check first thing in the morning anyway. I then slide the caret to the desktop tile, click and off I go. Really! Just relax and think about it. This is not something to get infuriated about! In fact it's actually turning out to be a kind of relaxing way to start the day. Sometimes a live tile is presenting a news story that I find interesting so before I run to the desktop I go check that out and have a cup of coffee before I get into things. It's really pretty nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    And more to the point, it is a clear demonstration of what I consider to be the bloody mindedness and arrogance of M$ in refusing to give users an option for their preferred choice of boot. If they can be that dogmatic in the current depressed market then they deserve what they get.
    We're really getting angry over irrelevant things around here. Again ... calm down a bit. All they did was re-arrange the cheese just a little bit. Think a minute ... a single mouse-click is causing a great deal of angst here. I've been using these systems ever since they were invented. If anybody would get frustrated over this it should be me - but it just ain't that big a deal! I really miss the 2-seconds it takes for me to hit that tile and snap into the desktop! (NOT!)

    As I have already said (and this is the last time I will apologize for this) ... we've all [me included] gotten really frothed up about this thing. The changes are not so Orwellian that they're going to cause us any trouble. Microsoft has made a few design changes in an attempt to migrate forward into some new markets. OK, so they have changed the desktop GUI a bit, however nothing that is anything but a slight eye-candy change. Everything still works.

    Let's chill everybody!

    -Max

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #152


    Posts : 5,360
    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin


    I know not everybody has advanced qualifications and years of experience in marketing.

    What do you think the point of showing everybody the start screen at every opportunity is for?

    Why do they not want you to boot straight to the desktop without seeing it?

    Why do they want it to keep showing up - even you are only using the desktop?

    What is the screen - what does it promote - where does it lead the average Joe?

    That is just one of the many ways MS are trying to pluck the turkey without it squealing.

    The user is being monetarised. That is what it is about.

    They do not tell you that in the commercials. They don't want you to catch on.

    MS are not unique in that.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #153


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    One point though, if I did have to boot through Metro, and I know it only involves a single click of the keyboard to get to desktop ... that absolutely infuriates me because it's unnecessary!
    You know, that's what change is all about. It's so unnecessary to change! Well, that's the point. If you didn't change, it wouldn't be change. And more to the point, how will you ever know if doing things a different way is better if you refuse to do it?

    Windows is full of "unnecessary" things. Why do you need to click on Start to Shut down? Why do you need to Click through 10 menus to get to the settings you want? In the grand scheme of things, one click or keypress is nothing. I'm not saying you shouldn't change it to how you want, but I am saying that it's not the end of the world rage that so many people seem to get over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    And more to the point, it is a clear demonstration of what I consider to be the bloody mindedness and arrogance of M$ in refusing to give users an option for their preferred choice of boot. If they can be that dogmatic in the current depressed market then they deserve what they get.
    It's Microsoft's OS. They can design it however they want. You want it exactly like you want? Write one yourself, or pay someone to write one, or pay someone to customize it how you want. It's not Microsoft's job, nor is it even possible, for Microsoft to appease every persons personal whims about how Windows should function.

    We live in this thing called a (more or less) free market. Nobody puts a gun to your head for anything. If you don't like something, you're not forced to buy it. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet. That's how it works with any other product.

    Arrogance? Over a mouse click? Seriously? There are far more examples of possible arrogance than that. It sits so far down the list I am just floored that anyone could get so worked up over a freaking click.

    I'd also like to just point out the irony of someone getting righteous indignation about arrogance, and then demanding that a multi-billion dollar corporation bend to one persons will (or even a small subsets will, and no matter what you think.. you ARE in a minority of people, as the vast majority just don't care one way or the other). I won't go so far as to call you a hypocrite, or arrogant yourself, but the argument could certainly be made for both.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #154


    Posts : 5,360
    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin


    It's not about a click.

    It is about showing the start screen to the users as often as possible.

    If they can pull this off - they will have done a great job in a marketing sense.

    They realised it was bit too obvious and have toned it down.

    It seems to be working.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #155


    I bought my first computer with the first Windows many years ago, have seen many new Windows Windows for Work Groups Vista XP Win7 now Win8 I may have omitted some or forgot them. But nothing is the same with Microsoft Windows O.S. I think I kept XP on one computer till Win7 was around maybe two years before getting it. I just have Win8 on one of my laptops now, so far besides a few older programs that won't install it's been Ok.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #156


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    One point though, if I did have to boot through Metro, and I know it only involves a single click of the keyboard to get to desktop ... that absolutely infuriates me because it's unnecessary!
    You know, that's what change is all about. It's so unnecessary to change! Well, that's the point. If you didn't change, it wouldn't be change. And more to the point, how will you ever know if doing things a different way is better if you refuse to do it?

    Windows is full of "unnecessary" things. Why do you need to click on Start to Shut down? Why do you need to Click through 10 menus to get to the settings you want? In the grand scheme of things, one click or keypress is nothing. I'm not saying you shouldn't change it to how you want, but I am saying that it's not the end of the world rage that so many people seem to get over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    And more to the point, it is a clear demonstration of what I consider to be the bloody mindedness and arrogance of M$ in refusing to give users an option for their preferred choice of boot. If they can be that dogmatic in the current depressed market then they deserve what they get.
    It's Microsoft's OS. They can design it however they want. You want it exactly like you want? Write one yourself, or pay someone to write one, or pay someone to customize it how you want. It's not Microsoft's job, nor is it even possible, for Microsoft to appease every persons personal whims about how Windows should function.

    We live in this thing called a (more or less) free market. Nobody puts a gun to your head for anything. If you don't like something, you're not forced to buy it. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet. That's how it works with any other product.

    Arrogance? Over a mouse click? Seriously? There are far more examples of possible arrogance than that. It sits so far down the list I am just floored that anyone could get so worked up over a freaking click.

    I'd also like to just point out the irony of someone getting righteous indignation about arrogance, and then demanding that a multi-billion dollar corporation bend to one persons will (or even a small subsets will, and no matter what you think.. you ARE in a minority of people, as the vast majority just don't care one way or the other). I won't go so far as to call you a hypocrite, or arrogant yourself, but the argument could certainly be made for both.
    That's your opinion, and needless to say, I totally disagree with it and the various things quoted as facts.

    I wouldn't expect you to understand, because you seem to be incapable of understanding or grasping the opinion of anyone who criticizes Windows 8 or Microsoft. Which attitude pretty much reflects the attitude of M$ themselves, coming from a monopolistic, autocratic position, which has been held for many years ... and their panic as it is now being seriously challenged by Android & Apple leading the van in the relatively new, huge and lucrative mobile device touch screen market spear headed by smartfone.

    M$ need to get past their attitude of: We know what's best for you. But having said that, the real issue is that stated by SIW2, viz:

    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2
    It's not about a click.

    It is about showing the start screen to the users as often as possible.

    If they can pull this off - they will have done a great job in a marketing sense.

    They realised it was bit too obvious and have toned it down.

    It seems to be working.
    Wake up and smell the marketing roses. But then I suspect you already know that?

    I repeat and stand by what I said:

    And more to the point, it is a clear demonstration of what I consider to be the bloody mindedness and arrogance of M$ in refusing to give users an option for their preferred choice of boot. If they can be that dogmatic in the current depressed market then they deserve what they get.

    Obviously we are never going to agree, because you are incapable of understanding my point of view, so we can spend the next 10 or 20 posts repeating our stated positions, and possibly get the thread shut down by a mod .... or let it go here and now and move on.
    Last edited by Mustang; 15 Nov 2012 at 15:24.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #157


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by legacy7955 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Peck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by legacy7955 View Post
    I'm not against Windows 8 per se, I am against being forced as the consumer to not have a choice between booting to the Metro UI or to the desktop.
    It's NOT that big a deal! The desktop tile is the first one listed on the default Metro screen. Tap it and you're there. If you put your machine to sleep it returns to the desktop when it wakes up. C'mon ... let's give this one (and the missing Start Button) a rest, shall we. It ain't a problem!

    -Max

    That's fine IF you don't ever turn your PC off at night or when you are not using it....but you see, I and others do, it is after all my choice.

    The fact is that what you say does not work if you are turning the PC off and then back on .

    It IS a problem for a LOT of folks that CHOOSE to turn their computer off.
    Booting into the Desktop UI is just too mainstream.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #158


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Booting into the Desktop UI is just too mainstream.
    It is for a lot of people Cokey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Peck
    The changes are not so Orwellian that they're going to cause us any trouble.
    Sorry Max, but ...

    Metro is nothing more than a compulsory marketing splash screen!

    And a pain in the butt!


    ... unless you want it for a tablet/smartfone ... or apps? But who uses Metro apps? Silly me! I'm forgetting! The whole purpose of compulsory Metro is to promote the sale of apps and cloud!

    In effect M$ are enforcing the use of a sub-set of an OS to promote apps and mobile/touch devices!

    Enforced splash screens are understandable in freeware applications, but in retail version where you're paying hard $$$$! No way! $39 for an upgrade says it all ... market promotion!

    Good OS? Yep! Already bought it. M$ bullshit marketing promo? No! Don't buy it! End of story.

    Hell, at least something I gained from all those years as Aussie national marketing manager was to be smart enough to know a snow job when I see it!
    Last edited by Mustang; 15 Nov 2012 at 21:35.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #159


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    That's your opinion, and needless to say, I totally disagree with it and the various things quoted as facts.
    Opinion? Nothing I said in that message was opinion. I will state these as facts, and if you can show how they are opinions, then more power to you, but they're not.

    FACT 1: Microsoft owns the OS. They own the trademark. They own the code. They own the images. They own the styling. They own it all. This is indisputable, it is fact.

    FACT 2: Due to Fact 1, They can do with it what they want (with the exception of where they are court mandated). They don't need anyone's permission to change it in any way they want. If they want to kill it, they can. This too is indisputable fact.

    FACT 3: Due to facts 1 and 2, You have no rights whatsoever to dictate to them how they must design their OS. They don't have to listen to you, or anyone else. This is not "arrogance". This is their rights, as they live in a country which recognizes property rights and in particular intellectual property rights. If they create a product that nobody wants, then they will go out of business. But they don't owe you anything, and they certainly do not need to listen to you about how the OS is designed. Again, this is indisputable fact, there is no opinion here.

    FACT 4: Given facts 1-3, and the fact you have absolutely no standing in any legal, moral, or ethical battle about the future of the OS, then your insistence that Microsoft somehow "Owes" you an OS that works the way you want is ridiculous. Microsoft owes you no such thing. If you don't like their new product, you don't have to buy it. If you DO buy it, knowing it's not what you want, then that's your own damn fault and it is not Microsoft's responsibility to "fix it" to meet your whims. It's their responsibility to fix it if it doesn't perform as it was intended to, but that's it.

    What about any of this is "opinion"? What is there here to disagree with, other than that you think you are owed something by Microsoft and demand they give it to you.

    Great, you don't like Windows 8. Thankfully, you don't have to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    I wouldn't expect you to understand, because you seem to be incapable of understanding or grasping the opinion of anyone who criticizes Windows 8 or Microsoft. Which attitude pretty much reflects the attitude of M$ themselves, coming from a monopolistic, autocratic position, which has been held for many years ... and their panic as it is now being seriously challenged by Android & Apple leading the van in the relatively new, huge and lucrative mobile device touch screen market spear headed by smartfone.
    I have no problem with criticism. Neither Microsoft or their products are perfect, or anywhere near it. There's plenty to criticize. I get that you don't like the start page and other features, and I fully accept that you don't like them.

    None of that changes the fact that Windows 8 is what it is.
    None of that changes the fact that Microsoft will *NOT* be getting rid of Metro.
    None of that changes the fact that the start menu will *NOT* be coming back no matter how much you complain.
    None of that changes the fact that Win32 will slowly become more and more irrelevant as Metro apps mature and take over.
    None of that changes the fact that LOTS of people like Windows 8 exactly as it is.
    None of that changes the fact that We're all tired of hearing people complain about things that will not change.
    None of that changes the fact that Microsoft does not owe you anything other than:
    * Support that fixes the OS if it does not operate as it was designed to (not how you want demand it does)
    * A full refund if you do not agree to the terms of the license.

    I do not accept criticism that is not based in reality.
    I do not accept criticism from people that do not even use the product.
    I do not accept criticism from people that did not give the product a fair evaluation.
    I do not accept criticism where the critic is clearly trying to justify their dislike by making things up (saying things that aren't true, making assumptions because they didn't bother to do anything more than superficially evaluate it, making vague hand-wavy comments about "unsuitability" for a given purpose without being able to explain why that is the case, etc..)

    I do accept criticism of things that are personal preference.

    Don't like the Metro style? Nothing I can argue about. You don't like it.

    Don't like the start page? Fine, you don't like it. Just don't make claims like "Not suitable for a keyboard and mouse" because that's simply not true.

    Don't like Metro apps because they're not that useful? Fine, that's valid criticism at the moment... BUT, that will not always be the case. All too many people seem to think that the way Windows 8 is today is the way it will always be, and that it won't improve.

    Don't like the fact that Metro apps are full screen? No problem, I'm not a fan of it either. I agree. But there are technical reasons for it, and it is still a relatively young feature that will improve. You have to crawl before you can walk, and you have to walk before you can run. In my opinion, this is not enough of an issue to be a deal breaker, because I have 3 monitors and can deal with full screen apps.

    Don't like the fact that Metro is not only full screen, but stuck on a single monitor? I also agree with that. I wish it was otherwise, and I'm hoping that it will be in a Service Pack or future version. But again, for me it's not a deal breaker. I can deal with it. If you can't, that's completely understandable.

    If you don't like Windows 8, then that's your choice. But WHY are you here complaining day after day about the same things time after time? Especially since there seems to be NOTHING about Windows 8 that you DO like.

    But please, don't pretend like the OS is unusable, that your opinions apply to everyone, and that everyone in the world thinks the same as you do. It's simply not true.

    I accept you don't like it. I do. What I do *NOT* accept is your attempt to justify your dislike as anything other than personal preference. Windows 8 works just fine for a lot of people. Your problems with it are more about YOU than they are about Windows.

    And again, Microsoft does *NOT* owe you. They are not being "arrogant". They simply have a direction that they want THEIR product to go in, and they have a particular vision in mind of how to achieve it. If you don't like that direction and vision, there's nothing wrong with that. But stop pretending like Microsoft is personally destroying your life by pursuing their goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    M$ need to get past their attitude of: We know what's best for you.
    That's not the attitude at all. Microsoft has a particular vision, and they want you to buy it. Just like apple has a particular vision, and google has a particular vision. It just so happens that Microsoft's vision largely mapped with yours in previous versions, and apparently it doesn't anymore. So you go your separate ways.

    But rather than breaking up amicably, you turn into a stalker, following Windows around and telling anyone that will listen about how they wronged you, and how they're a dirty no good arrogant so and so. Yet for some reason, you can't seem to let go...

    You may not like that comparison, but it's pretty apt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    And more to the point, it is a clear demonstration of what I consider to be the bloody mindedness and arrogance of M$ in refusing to give users an option for their preferred choice of boot. If they can be that dogmatic in the current depressed market then they deserve what they get.
    If they're not giving you want you want, then go elsewhere. It's really that simple. Yes, if the majority of users don't agree with their vision of their product, then they do deserve what they get. Absolutely. I completely agree with you.

    Where we disagree (among many things, but on this point) is that a) I don't believe Microsoft should compromise their vision for their product to meet the demands of a small subset of users and b) I don't think the problems you and others have vocalized are actual problems, but rather a deep seated unwillingness to consider change. If you don't want to change, then don't upgrade to a new OS.

    You're the guy that bought a car and complains because it doesn't have hoofs, and needs gas instead of hay. If what you really want is a horse, buy a horse. Don't buy a car and complain that it's not a horse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    Obviously we are never going to agree, because you are incapable of understanding my point of view, so we can spend the next 10 or 20 posts repeating our stated positions, and possibly get the thread shut down by a mod .... or let it go here and now and move on.
    I understand that you don't like some of the changes in Windows 8. I get it. We all got it the first 200 times you said it.

    I understand that you feel injured somehow and that you're a victim of Microsoft's greed and arrogance. I just don't feel like you have a right to expect that Microsoft will bend to your demands.

    It would be one thing if Microsoft had made these changes retroactively to Windows 7, and did not allow an older version to function. I would fully be on your side in criticize Microsoft and would totally agree that Microsoft was being "arrogant" in making such a retroactive change. But that is not the case. Windows 8 is a *NEW* OS, representing a major shift in the direction and vision of the Windows franchise.

    I don't believe you have any right whatsoever as an owner of a previous version of Windows to demand that they not follow that vision.

    I don't believe you have any right whatsoever as an owner of a previous version of Windows to demand that the next version be exactly like the old version.

    And I think that if you knowingly bought a copy of Windows 8, knowing how it was designed and what it represents, then you CERTAINLY do not have a right to complain that it's not something else.

    You have every right to complain, and every right to criticize. And I will die defending your right to do so. But I have the right to disagree with you. And Microsoft has the right to ignore you, and pursue their own agenda. And if you're going to criticize, then please be factually accurate about it, and don't present your opinions as facts, and act as if your opinions are irrefutable.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #160


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    I have to dispute the win32 argument. Theoretically, in the long term, it will be turned over into WinRT. But right now, WinRT is actually a pretty new foundation layer on top of win32 as win32 has been proven to work and whatnot. There is simply too much piping and coding to get rid of it. But it might, as WinRT matures.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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Is Windows 8 a failure ? Time to say bye, bye MSFT ?
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