Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums

SSD & Defrag

  1. #11


    Posts : 12
    Win8.1Pro


    yeah, maybe you are right. I am using SSDs for about 5-6 years now and things could have changed. HDD just for storage. No defrag problem for me anyway

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  2. #12


    Some interesting info there lads, thanks for that. I did a C defrag yesterday, and I used smart defrag 3. Visually the disk was a mess and its now a (visually at least) smart compact disk.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #13


    All hard drives have a small "buffer" built into their controller boards to help improve performance. The data passes through the buffer during the reads and writes to and from the platters inside the hard drive. Today's drives typically have buffers of 32 to 64Mb in size. Traditional hard drives use standard type RAM for this buffer memory.

    "Hybrid" drives use faster SSD technology memory for their buffers but the data still just passes through the buffer. Everything else about a hybrid drive is identical with traditionally buffered drives. So the files saved on a hybrid drive can and fragmented over time in the exact same way as traditionally buffered drives.

    Note that regardless the type of hard drive, today's drives are HUGE, and cheap compared to those of a few years ago. And performance really only suffers when you run low on "free" disk space because that is when files really become fragmented. It is not a problem if your files are scattered all over the place because today's drives can find the first segment super fast regardless where it is. What matters is if the file is broken up into a bunch of fragments forcing the R/W head to jump all over the place, instead of just moving along to the adjacent storage location for the next file segment.

    Also note that Windows 7, 8 and 10, by default, automatically defrags your hard disks and you should let it do it and not worry about manual defragging. This is because Windows Disk Optimize (its defragger) works with its various fetch routines to optimize the disk based on your normal computer usage to allow your favorite programs to load faster. This is another reason to NOT use 3rd party defraggers.

    Do NOT assume what we had to do with XP is still necessary with W7, W8, or W10. It probably isn't and for sure, is not with defragging.

    IF your hard disks are heavily fragmented, that is a sign you need to free up space, or buy more space.
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  4. #14


    Posts : 454
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center


    I disabled the Windows 8 defragger for my hard drives due to its terrible behavior WRT consolidating free space. I talked about that in this thread:

    Prevent scheduled defrag from consolidating free space?

    See in particular first and last messages.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #15


    I'm not letting any automatic maintenance, I'm quite capable and have enough time to do some of it on my own. That way there's no unexpected surprises. Disk cleanup (just selected things), once a month. Windows Defrag never and third party program (Disk speedup) for any other drives I may encounter and that were in some other computer. There are no detectable changes in computers operational speed and most I get is some storage space saved. No CCleaners, no optimizers and stuff like that, haven't seen need for them for long time now. Best option for keeping system clean is not to let it get dirty, Revo Uninstaller takes care of program leftovers quite good enough even with dozens of programs being installed and uninstalled monthly.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #16


    That's your choice for sure, and if you stay on top of, that's great. But the vast majority of users have no desire to babysit their computers. And frankly, they should not have to. And the good news is, with a modern version of Windows like W8.x, they don't have to because W8.x is eons ahead of XP and is fully capable of doing it right with no problems. MS has had 20+ years to sort it out, after all. We have to give their armies of PhDs, CompSci engineers, super computers and decades worth of statistical data some credit. It is highly unlikely any of us are smarter than them.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMike
    No CCleaners, no optimizers and stuff like that, haven't seen need for them for long time now.


    Sorry for laughing, but what do you think Disk Speedup is but an optimizer? And note that Revo Uninstaller is nothing more than a disk cleanup and registry cleaner too! I am not saying there is anything wrong with them, but don't think for a second they are not cleaners or optimizers. They are exactly "stuff like that"!

    And for the record, I find it a bit counterproductive to use a 3rd party defragger. Why? Because the second, and I mean that quite literally, the second you start to use your computer after defragging, the fragmentation process starts all over again. So the few percentage point advantage in efficiency a 3rd party defragger offers is quickly negated and the playing field leveled as files are opened, temp files saved, Windows files are updated, replaced, and new files created.

    Plus, Windows defragger is already in there. It makes no sense to me to download and install yet another program that takes up more disk space if we are concerned already about conserving disk space.

    Best option for keeping system clean is not to let it get dirty
    Agreed. And for that, I am a huge fan of CCleaner. That said, I really like Windows own Disk Cleanup program to keep my system tidy too. But with CCleaner, I can tell it which cookies I want to keep so I don't have to re-enter my log-in credentials for the sites I regularly visit every time I cleanout the clutter on my drives.

    Quote Originally Posted by crawfish
    I disabled the Windows 8 defragger for my hard drives due to its terrible behavior WRT consolidating free space
    No doubt Windows Disk Optimize (its defragger) is a "basic" defragging tool. But I contend a basic tool is all we need, in part for what I said above, but also with today's HUGE drives, consolidating free space is not that important. That only matters if you are running low on free space and with today's inexpensive monster-size disks you should not be running low on free disk space. The fact is, if you consolidate your free space (which, in effects, jams all the files together) you contribute to fragmentation because Windows Update and other program updates change files sizes all the time which then forces the new file to be saved out in the free areas, leaving holes where fragments will be saved. Not a problem if you regularly manually defrag but that just increases wear on your drives. And IMO, having to manually defrag drives these days is an unnecessary inconvenience - and waste of my time.

    As I said above, it does not matter if your files are scattered, as long as the file segments are saved together. And ensuring you have lots of free disk space does that.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #17


    Posts : 454
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center


    Quote Originally Posted by Itaregid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crawfish
    I disabled the Windows 8 defragger for my hard drives due to its terrible behavior WRT consolidating free space
    No doubt Windows Disk Optimize (its defragger) is a "basic" defragging tool. But I contend a basic tool is all we need, in part for what I said above, but also with today's HUGE drives, consolidating free space is not that important. That only matters if you are running low on free space and with today's inexpensive monster-size disks you should not be running low on free disk space. The fact is, if you consolidate your free space (which, in effects, jams all the files together) you contribute to fragmentation because Windows Update and other program updates change files sizes all the time which then forces the new file to be saved out in the free areas, leaving holes where fragments will be saved. Not a problem if you regularly manually defrag but that just increases wear on your drives. And IMO, having to manually defrag drives these days is an unnecessary inconvenience - and waste of my time.

    As I said above, it does not matter if your files are scattered, as long as the file segments are saved together. And ensuring you have lots of free disk space does that.
    Hmmm. Did you read my thread I linked to? I turned off defrag of hard drives because I couldn't find a way to stop Windows' free space consolidation.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #18


    Before there was a MS Defrag program, there was "Compress" by Central Point Software, and even a similar program, Speed Disk, from Peter Norton, that was trashing HD's all over the country.

    I used Compress for several years and it did a wonderful job of reorganizing a hard drive and eliminating fragmentation.
    When MS first presented us with a Defrag program, back in FAT-32 days, it looked just like the old Compress program.

    But I found a more time effective way to defrag my own hard drives.
    I do a Ghost backup to a compressed image file, on a separate HD and then while Ghost is still running I do a Restore of the Image File I just created. That re-writes every bit on the hard drive, laying it down in perfect order, with no fragmentation and NO spaces between files.
    [Spaces just add to more fragmentation.]

    Keeping your HD defragmented, definitely adds to performance, and that's why MS added Defrag to Windows, many years ago now.
    We might not always agree with everything the MS programmers do, but they certainly are not stupid.

    WE've been told over and over again, that SSD's to not need to be defragmented and that's good advise.

    Cheers Mates!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #19


    Don't laugh about Disk speedup, it is an optimizer but for specific purpose only and I said I use it only on occasion when some strange HDD has to be optimized because it's light years in front of windows built in one, in speed as in options. If system is left in clean state, CCleaner finds almost nothing and can't find any significant number of leftovers, nothing close to what Revo cleans up.
    Just for laughs and to prove a point, few month ago I tried few of those "Speed-em-uppers" and benchmarked computer before and after and some of them actually lowered performance.

    "Optimizers" I was talking about are likes of IObit, AVG system optimizer etc. There's tones of them and has been proven over and over that their usefulness is somewhere between nothing to downright dangerous and counterproductive.
    It's also not true that fragmentation starts so soon, only when there is not enough place for continuous writes, since W7, windows have been intelligent enough to keep fragmentation at minimum. I have auto defrag off and no fragmentation to any significant degree after months of use and TBs of data going thru.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #20


    Oops. My apologies.

    I see now what you are referring too and sadly, while trying to quickly respond here, I cannot find what I am looking for but I don't believe the problem is as bad as it seems. That is, Disk Optimize's consolidating free space feature is not as aggressive as it sounds - though it can take some significant time if not run in some time (another reason to let it automatically run in the background)

    I will try to find the MS article that explains it detail.

    Sorry again for not thoroughly reading and understanding your point.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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