Upgrade from 2TB to 4TB, or time to go RAID?

orlando1974

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Hey gang,
I'm a creative professional and music producer. My current setup on Windows 8.1 involves a 240GB SSD for C:, and then I have a WD Black Caviar 2TB which is split in two equal partitions (1TB for Design Arts, 1TB for Music Studio), and finally a small 250GB drive which I use as Adobe scratch disk.

The issue I'm about to face is that my 2TB drive now has less than 60GB free so I'm going to soon run out of space. Currently I mirror this 2TB drive to an external 2TB WD Passport so that I always have a backup and a portable version of the projects that I can take with me. This has worked beautifully up to now.

So my first instinct is to replace my current 2TB with a WD Black 4TB (or leave the 2TB there in addition to the new 4TB). This way, I should be good for a while... also seems like this is probably the top performing 7200 RPM drive for creative workstations at the moment.

However, I know there is such a thing as RAID. Particularly, I think RAID-1. Would it be better for me to scrap my configuration of 1 drive for C:, 1 drive for projects and recording, 1, drive for Adobe scratch... and instead setup a RAID for projects and recording? If so, what does it imply? I wasn't looking to spend much more than the cost of the 4TB.. so if I would have to buy 2 of those, its probably off the table. Also, if RAID-1 only provides a solution in case of HD failure, well, I already own external drives that I can use for backups.

Any advice/suggestions would be immensely appreciated...:)
 

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It is important to understand what RAID is, and what it is not.
The purpose of RAID 1 is to maintain access to your data in the event of a drive failure. Drive replacement can then be deferred to a more convenient time. This is a big deal on a busy server, not so much on a workstation. Of course there are exceptions. If that is your reason for using RAID 1, then great. The downside to RAID 1 is cost. You need 2 drives to provide the storage capacity of 1.

But no form of RAID ever devised is a replacement for maintaining regular backups. It only offers protection from drive failures and even that cannot be relied on. For all other causes of data loss it offers no protection whatsoever. All files of any importance need at least one backup copy, 2 or more backup copies for files of particular importance. Having no backups is asking for trouble. Data recovery cannot be relied on.

RAID 0 is different in that it provides no redundancy at all. It's purpose is increased performance but under real world conditions this is often rather modest. The downside is that if 1 drive fails you loose all data. Maintaining regular backups is even more important.

There are other forms of RAID but they require 3 or more physical drives.
 

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Thanks for the reply. I guess in that case I'd be looking more into a RAID 0.... however, I wonder just how much more performance I would get... and do the drives need to be identical size, or can I combine a 4TB with a 2TB?

I wonder if this is what more creatives do, or if they just use a standard configuration of the fastest drive they can buy? I know lots of them use Macs. Can RAID be done on Macs?
 

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The maximum theoretical gain would approach double the transfer rate. In the real world it will be considerably less. The actual gains depend primarily on the nature of the files and how they are accessed.

In theory you could combine a 2 GB and 4 GB drive in RAID 0 but the array could only use 2 GB of the larger drive. Whether or not it would work depends on the controller. Using the remaining 2 GB for other purposes could compromise the performance gains.

You really need to research RAID 0 before proceeding. I am not a big fan of RAID 0. In most cases it is more trouble than it is worth.
And as I mentioned previously, backups are essential. If 1 drive fails you loose everything.
 

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Hi there

Instead of implementing RAID - why not have a look at STORAGE SPACES - with RAID you have to have all HDD's in the pool the same. With Storage spaces you can pool as many (different size) HDD's as you like (and you can have SEVERAL pools).

The Windows built in software will handle the mix and you can dynamically add and delete volumes (unless you choose to use the WHOLE pool as a gigantic HDD).

I've been using Windows 8.1 Storage spaces for a long time now --works brilliantly and I've loads of 320 and 500GB HDD's that I've usefully combined into a nice large storage space -- great for large multi-media directories etc.

Beware though if you don't select "Parity Mode" or a "Raid 5" type of choice then if any HDD fails you lose the lot. Parity mode works best when the HDD's are of similar size. Parity mode is best when you are doing many reads but not so many writes.

It's a longish article but well worth reading -- The storage spaces discussion is towards the end. IMO this is a great solution for your type of situation and it's amazingly cheap -- FREE in fact !!!.

Windows Storage Spaces and ReFS: Is it time to ditch RAID for good?

Cheers
jimbo
 

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This has worked beautifully up to now.
Then why change it - other than "adding" more disk space? No where in your opening post do complain about "performance".

I agree with all of the above and think you should stop thinking about RAID. As noted, RAID1 (mirrored) takes two drives to provide the same capacity of one drive, and provides no beneficial gains in performance. RAID0 (striped) spreads your files across two drives, doubling the risks with two potential points of total failure, instead of one - again with little to no beneficial gains in performance - ESPECIALLY compared to your SSD.

Yes, RAID1 provides redundancy and a real-time backup should one drive fail, but not if lightning, flood, fire, malware, a home burglar, or a spilled cup of coffee takes out your computer!

RAID0 provide no redundancy whatsoever, increases risks of data loss due to drive failure, consequently requires very frequent (at least daily!) backups. Yes, you get a little performance gains, especially with reads - but that is with disk intensive scenarios - like busy file servers with multiple users simultaneously accessing data files. And those gains ONLY affect disk performance - nothing else.

I recommend you simply add more space (add another drive), then organize it to best to suit your needs. Your 240Gb SSD should be plenty big to house Windows, hardware drivers, and ALL your applications too! And accessing those files is where speed is really important. Then store all your documents, music and other "user" data files on your slower HDs.

finally a small 250GB drive which I use as Adobe scratch disk.
A scratch disk? That seems like a huge waste of potential SSD performance to me.

Finally - you did not mention how much RAM you have installed. If performance is a concern, and if you have 4Gb or less currently installed, then for the most bang for your money, bump your RAM up to 8Gb (assuming 64-bit Windows). This will provide significant "across the board" performance gains - not just disk drive performance. If you already have 8Gb or more (6Gb with a triple channel memory architecture motherboard), then look at upgrading your graphics solution - but note a new graphics card often requires a bigger PSU to support it.
 

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I set up an old system to test the Windows 10 preview and because I am using old slow hard drives that may fail at anytime I set up a raid1 (mirrored) drive not just to protect against one drive failing but to provide a bit better performance. Am I wrong thinking I would get better performance when it comes to reads?
 

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In theory RAID 1 can provide a modest performance gain, depending on the controller. But my understanding is that with most consumer grade controllers there will be none. See my post #2 for what RAID is and what it is not.
 

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Am I wrong thinking I would get better performance when it comes to reads
As LMiller7 noted, "in theory", yes. But will you notice it? Not likely.
  • Today's hard drives are pretty darn quick, compared to drives of yesterday,
  • Plus they tend to have big integrated buffers compared to drives of yesterday, with 32Mb - 64Mb common,
  • Plus computers tend to have more RAM so Windows will not need to stuff and access the Page File (on the slow HD) as much,
  • Today's modern operating systems are already very efficient when they do need to use the Page file,
  • Also, hard drives have next to nothing to do with Internet content - that is, data that comes through (downloaded from) the Internet instead of off the HDs - which is much of what we do these days.
Remember - we are talking about a couple 1000ths of a second (milliseconds) here.

 

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Thanks to all for your input, and especially Jimbo45 for introducing me to a modern alternative to RAID.
I am definitely NOT going to do RAID. I will definitely get the 4TB added to my system. I just don't know if I'll use it with a standard setup (plug in, partition it, etc), or if I'll do storage spaces. I did read the article completely but still have a few questions:

Seems to me Mirror mode has better success than Parity mode. While I understand the concept of mirroring, I dont understand what Parity is. Could you please expand?

I realize that I wont be able to continuously add drives inside my system - I think I only have a few SATA rev 3 ports on my Asus Z77 board. As much as I love the idea of setting this up as a mirror and not have to worry about hard drive failures, my current solution of mirroring to an external/portable USB drive also allowed me to take my work on the road when using my laptop. If I start mirroring inside the desktop on internal drives, I'll have to manage it differently, not to mention my portable drives are only 1.5TB and 2TB.

Any suggestions from people who work mainly on desktop but occasionally want to take the bulk of their projects and assets with them while traveling or working remotely?

Finally, if you set up Storage Spaces in Win 8.1 using drives that already contain data, will all that data be lost (as in reformatted)? Or can one try out storage spaces and revert back to the old way if its not working out as expected?
 

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Hi there

Storage spaces CAN be implemented on external USB drives - but remember if you use this on a portable machine then you have to take BOTH HDD's with you on the road.

Parity mode essentially "mirrors" data so if an HDD fails in the array you don't lose all the data. It does it in a way that doesn't actually require half the hdd space to be used as "backup". Probably in real situations uses about 25% of the space.

On a HOME machine it's not really worth setting up the system for maximum optimisation of HDD's - unless you are running robust servers that's HUGELY overkill. The performance increase doesn't warrant the effort or lost HDD space in setting it up.

If you want maximum performance for the OS and programs install these on a separate SSD - that will buy the fastest performance for these days a small amount of money -- SSD's are reasonably priced these days - if you've got other storage then even a 128GB SSD is more than enough for the OS + programs - a 256GB one probably just a bit more comfortable. They are very reliable too.

You can set up more than ONE storage space so you could test say a couple of older external USB's -- I tested with some old LAPTOP drives - connected to the machine via a SATA==>USB cable. It worked fine.

This article should get you started. Note you'll have to back up any data that exists on the HDD's you want to use first.

Windows 8 Storage Spaces: a how-to guide | Features | PC Pro

As for projects on the road -- I've found a small external USB3 2TB HDD more than enough "portable" storage. Of course if you can access your HOME computer remotely then that's also a possibility.

You could for some projects even use "The dreaded Cloud" but I don't particularly like that solution -- YMMV though.

The Ms storage spaces idea just suits me fine -- No more RAID for me on a home machine.

(BTW if you decide to upgrade to W10 in the future - Storage spaces are implemented there too).

Incidentally a LINUX machine can access the storage pool as can any other machines on your LAN including any XP machines too.

When the "Storage space" which windows sees as a large physical volume is accessed over a Network Windows networking handles the protocol so even though the file system of the storage space is the new Ms ReFs system windows does the I/O and converts it to normal NFS or standard networking.

Cheers
jimbo
 
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Personally, I am not a fan of external storage devices used for permanent data storage that rely on the USB interface. USB is great for things like the mouse and keyboard, but there are just too many reports of losing connection or mappings to external drives - or failing to reconnect/remap after reboots. Mappings can be especially troublesome if these drives are regularly disconnected and reconnected. All these issues were supposed to be fixed with USB 3.0, but problems still persist.

Another problem, at least with the budget enclosures and external drives may be the use of hard drives that are not really suited (ruggedized) for portable applications. Plus (at least on budget models) the tiny, flimsy, external cases just don't provide enough protection from physical abuse, as a full size notebook case might.

Most PC cases these days are "mid" towers that typically support 6 drives or more. And even many motherboards support that many or more drives. But if they don't, you can typically add more internal drive support by adding a PCIe to SATA adapter card.

What I did for my mass storage needs is repurpose an old XP system and basically turned it into a file server to act as my backup server and to stream music and videos over my network. But because XP is now obsolete and insecure and should NOT have Internet access, I just made sure I blocked Internet access to that system in my router so it does not become compromised by badguys. This keeps my old, but perfectly capable hardware still humming and out of the landfills, but does the right thing by not exposing XP to badguys on the Internet and becoming a threat to others.

I also am not a fan of "The dreaded Cloud". For one, considering big banks, Target, Home Depot, and government networks with staffs of highly qualified, professional IT security personnel, and sophisticated security protocols in place are being hacked on a regular basis. I just don't trust ANY cloud storage service provider can keep my personal data and information secure - or from simply being lost. I might put a picture of my dog in cloud storage, but nothing important - at least not for any type of long-term storage. If I need a file when on the road, I will put it on a thumb drive and stuff it in my pocket. Or maybe email it to myself.

If an external drive is your only option, I would consider using eSATA, if your motherboard and enclosure supports it. And BTW, I have one of these eSATA docking stations that, so far, has been trouble free and is much easier to use than enclosures - IMO anyway.
 

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Hi there.
Thanks !!

Actually for ROBUST portable systems old laptop drives are EXCELLENT !!! you can get them up to 1 TB in size and with a proper SATA==>USB2 (or better SATA==>USB3 if your laptop has USB3) cable that should provide plenty of quite stable HDD's. Old laptop drives I find much stronger than typical external HDD's - especially those plasticy My Passport drives -- fine for normal use but not very rugged.

My DOGS have even attempted to CHEW a couple of old laptop HDD's I've left on the floor -- apart from having to wash off doggy saliva the HDD's continued to work. These HDD's are RUGGED !!! - I have two mature Dobermann's with quite healthy teeth that would make the average dentist insanely jealous. !!!!

The only thing (The laptop ,HDD's - not the dogs !!) is they aren't the fastest around but if it's simply project type data you are storing on them they should be more than "fit for purpose".

Here's a pic of the cable you need -- this is a USB3/SATA but similar for USB2 SATA. About 3 - 6 USD a piece. !!!

Simply plug the laptop (2.5 inch HDD) into the SATA connector and the USB into the USB3/2 port on the machine. You don't need any extra power. I don't bother either with any extra enclosures for the external laptop drives either - they work fine just as is connected to the SATA==>USB cable. Far more rugged than any other system I can think of and very portable too.

Cheers
jimbo
 

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Wow, so Itaregid's suggested docking stations and Jimbo's suggested SATA-->USB cable solution both imply using a hard drive designed for internal use but using it externally without any protection such as an enclosure?? Isnt that a little risky? Isn't the circuitry exposed?

For myself, I still have plenty of room in my tower for internal drives, and I prefer doing so. But I think my Asus Z77 MB has a limit of 2 or 3 ports that support SATA Rev 3. So the way it looks is I'll have my C: on 240 SSD, plus a 7200RPM 4TB and a 7200RPM 2TB. I'll have an old 250GB 7200RPM dedicated as an Adobe Scratch disk.

Jimbo, the only thing I dont like about mirroring is that if ever I make changes to a file and accidentally save it, it will automatically save that new version in both places yes? That means if later I want to go back to an earlier version I wont be able to. Thats why I prefer MANUALLY mirroring my drives every week.

Just so I understand... if I combine my 4TB and my 2TB in a storage space that is set to mirror, does that mean it will chop it up equally in 3TB for storage and 3TB for backup? Also, what if the performance on the drives differ? How will I know that its using my fastest one say for music/audio recording if they are just pooled together?

Finally, Jimbo you mentioned you use an external drive for taking projects with you. Do you just load on it whatever you need or is it a full backup of your internal projects drive?

Lastly, Jimbo, what mode are you using in your storage space setup?
 

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Isnt that a little risky? Isn't the circuitry exposed?
A little and no - kinda. I would not let my 3 year-old grandson swap drives in and out, but I do it all the time with no problem. The docking station's circuitry is not exposed when no drive is inserted. Yes, some of the drive's controller board is exposed, but that allows for the heat generated to quickly radiate away, and NOT build up in a case.

What I like about a docking station instead of an enclosure is installing or removing a drive is a simple as inserting and ejecting a DVD from a DVD drive. No tools and no connecting/disconnecting cables. An enclosure typically requires disassembling the enclosure case by removing 4 screws, then fumbling with the data and power connectors within.

With that docking station, I need just one docking station, regardless the number of drives (unless I need access to more than two external drives at once). With enclosures, you need an enclosure for each drive - or keep a screwdriver handy and swap out every time.

IF you are a road warrior and need these extra drives when traveling, then a docking station is NOT a good idea. But no where have said portability is a requirement - and the fact you have a tower suggests it is not.
 

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One more question, based on the article you sent me, which I read, you assign ONE drive letter per storage space. So would you advise I set up TWO drive letters as I currently have on my regular non storage space setup (D: Main, and M: Studio)? Or just pool them all under a single drive letter?
 

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With that docking station, I need just one docking station, regardless the number of drives (unless I need access to more than two external drives at once). With enclosures, you need an enclosure for each drive - or keep a screwdriver handy and swap out every time.

IF you are a road warrior and need these extra drives when traveling, then a docking station is NOT a good idea. But no where have said portability is a requirement - and the fact you have a tower suggests it is not.

Im not a road warrior by any means, but there may come a time down the road when i will have to take as much of my desktop stuff with me. That day isnt here yet but its good to know about options... am i understanding correctly when I say the docking station WOULD be a great thing to bring on the road if you want to add massive amount of storage to a laptop? Lets say I go away for 6 months and I decide to pull out the 4TB and the 2TB from my desktop and bring them along - then I could just pop them into the docking station and connect the station to my laptop's USB 3 and I'd have access to the same storage space as I had on my desktop, yes?

(clearly I would only do this for VERY EXTENDED time away from home, and I also realize I would not get the same speeds as if they were connected internally via SATA Rev 3, but would be limited to the USB specs.)
 

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am i understanding correctly when I say the docking station WOULD be a great thing to bring on the road if you want to add massive amount of storage to a laptop? Lets say I go away for 6 months and I decide to pull out the 4TB and the 2TB from my desktop and bring them along - then I could just pop them into the docking station and connect the station to my laptop's USB 3 and I'd have access to the same storage space as I had on my desktop, yes?
Yes.

The ONLY reason I say docking stations are not good for road warriors is because you would still need to transport the actual drives in some sort of protective packaging or risk physical damage during transport. An enclosure already provides physical protection from being knocked about.

As far as "going away for 6 months" - you did not define that good enough. Will you be "on the road" during that time? Or will you be packing every thing up and temporarily "move" to "a" new and "fixed" location?
 

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As far as "going away for 6 months" - you did not define that good enough. Will you be "on the road" during that time? Or will you be packing every thing up and temporarily "move" to "a" new and "fixed" location?

I see where you're going with this. Obviously a better solution only if Im setting up shop maybe one time remotely, not in a new hotel room every night. lol. thanks for sharing your solution.
 

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