"Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts"

HippsieGypsie

It's Gururrrrrr8!
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Windows 8 seems to be a very controversial OS. The additional new Modern/Metro UI for navigation, the Window Store Modern/Metro apps, and Start Screen/All Apps verses the Start Menu seems to be the major factors of contoversy, although they do not complete the list. Opinions on this forum abound, which in turn tends to start many debates and even arguments.

In this thread I would like us all to look for the facts rather than opinions. There was an American TV series called Dragnet. When police detectives Sargent Friday and Bill Gannon interviwed witnesses with questions they would encounter opinions with witnesses' answers rather than facts. Sargent Friday would always answer back "Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts". They would then get the facts to continue their investigation.

Opinions are ok, but they do not solve any case. Opinions such as:

I like Windows 8.
I don't like Windows 8.
Windows 8 is the quickest OS ever.
Windows 8 is not the quickest OS ever.
Windows 8 has quickest boot time.
Windows 8 doesn't have the quickest boot time.
MS is stupid for taking out the Start Menu.
MS did a good job replacing the Start Menu with the Start Screen/All Apps.
MS is stupid for not giving the choice of UI upon install.
I like the new UI.
It'll never sell.
It'll sell like hotcakes.
MS is a monopoly pushing their agenda.
MS is not an evil empire.
Etc...etc...

For what reasons did MS develope Windows 8 the way they did? Why is there such different changes than past OSs? What are the facts? If you have facts of any kind with proof (usually a scientific study results, data charts/lists, a company employee statement/press release, or the like) I would like you to post it so I can add to the list.

I'll start by stating facts about why I think they eliminated the Start Menu and introducing the Start Screen/All Apps.

1. Touch is a growing market demand:
Notebook and All-in-One PCs Driving Touch Screen Growth; Intel and Microsoft Supporting Touch Adoption
Touch-screen market poised for growth

2. They needed to develope a larger launch platform within the relation of the human finger size for touch navigation, which the Start Menu did not meet requirements:
Designing the Start screen - Building Windows 8 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs
Building "Windows 8" - Video #1 - YouTube

What other reasons can you think of? I'll also be adding to this post as my time allows.

Just for grins:
Microsoft - YouTube
Microsoft Showcase: Watch videos from Microsoft's online video collection
 
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Ah I never saw Drag Net. (Too young!)

However I do remember this being played; the radio version of it anyway... ;)

[video=youtube;HT3QYb7AN6k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT3QYb7AN6k[/video]

(With apologies to Hippsie Gypsie for going off totally topic in post 2!)
 

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Oh, there was the declining use of the start menu as it was due to the increasing use of the Taskbar pinning from Windows 7 along with jumplists. Seriously, with those two on the Taskbar, you really don't need a start menu at all other than to shut down or to search for an app.
 

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Oh, there was the declining use of the start menu as it was due to the increasing use of the Taskbar pinning from Windows 7 along with jumplists

Now I have a fridge/freezer, I open the fridge door less often. That is because some of the stuff is in the freezer.

It is obvious a fridge is completely useless now. Take it away.

It is all down to interpretation. Sometimes there is deliberate misuse/misinterpretation. Shocking to find that out isn't it?
 

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Oh, there was the declining use of the start menu as it was due to the increasing use of the Taskbar pinning from Windows 7 along with jumplists

Now I have a fridge/freezer, I open the fridge door less often. That is because some of the stuff is in the freezer.

It is obvious a fridge is completely useless now. Take it away.

It is all down to interpretation. Sometimes there is deliberate misuse/misinterpretation. Shocking to find that out isn't it?
How did a refrigerator get involved?...

Facts are facts. You wouldn't dispute the fact that literally no one other than the small fraction of people that used it used Windows Media Center. Microsoft even said that the average time the majority of users was about a couple of minutes and mostly to look around, and then never use it again. Only those with HTPCs and Xboxes would be concerned about WMC. So it was taken out to be an addon feature as there is no reason for it to stay in Windows if it's not even being used, EVER.

The same goes for the start menu, it's been shown from Microsoft's gathered data from the Customer Improvement Program (or whatever it's called) that is on by default on EVERY PC with Windows 7 other than those who disable it (I'll rant about that later) that start menu usage was in fact, declining. If it stayed in Windows 8, it would still be in declining use. Probably by Windows 9, it would just be a simple vestige of olden days as it already has become. No one would really be using it, most would just use the Taskbar and jumplists. If it got to that point in Windows 9 or later with 8, why would that be a UI piece to keep? If it's not being used, there is a reason. Maybe it's not needed, maybe it's poorly designed, maybe there are other things people are doing that the start menu isn't needed for anymore. And also, it's a REAL pain in the crotch to use the start menu with a touchscreen in Windows 7, it's just not meant for that. The overall input scenario in the future with Windows 8 and on isn't with mouse input so much. But then again, this has been the future that Microsoft has envisioned for many, many, many, many years now. They just never acted on it with full force.

Now for my rant against the CIP disabling. There were complaints from people that intentionally disabled CIP in the enterprise environment (to combat superfluous network chatter I guess) and personally as well for some whatever deluded reason. They complained that the Start Screen wasn't designed to how they used Windows. NO FREAKING CRAP! You're involvement in improving Windows and seeing how you're using doesn't even become known to Microsoft. AT ALL. It's such a stupid thing to do, and greatly idiotic to complain about UI changes that is claimed doesn't revolved around your personal use. If that's not how you use Windows, then don't bloody disable the CIP feature then! And don't complain about changes that alter the your workflow because of that!

Good grief....
 

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What amazes me is this is Windows 8 forums right? Seems like many users on here are not happy with the U/I change so isn't that why Windows 7 is still supported and there is a Window 7 forum? I mean so fine start menu button is gone, people know you can find things through the search option right? No different before, you just go into new places for the same old stuff.
 

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What amazes me is this is Windows 8 forums right? Seems like many users on here are not happy with the U/I change so isn't that why Windows 7 is still supported and there is a Window 7 forum? I mean so fine start menu button is gone, people know you can find things through the search option right? No different before, you just go into new places for the same old stuff.
Basically.
 

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    ASUS R9 270
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    1440x900
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    1 TB Seagate Barracuda (starting to hate Seagate)
    x2 3 TB Toshibas
    Windows 8.1 is installed on a SanDisk Ultra Plus 256 GB
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    A current work in progres as I'll be building the physical case myself. It shall be fantastic.
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I have posted before wthy the start screen is being shoved at users frequently - you pay no attention.

Perhaps you can set up your own country - the State of Denial.

I hope that is what you are in.

I wouldn't like to think you were trying to deliberately mislead.


How did a refrigerator get involved?...

You are kidding, right ?

Even you can understand that because the fridge door is opened less often - i.e. it's use has declined - that does NOT mean the fridge is a useless item and it should be removed from every household.


Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics: The Manipulation of Public Opinion in America, by Michael Wheeler





Oh, there was the declining use of the start menu as it was due to the increasing use of the Taskbar pinning from Windows 7 along with jumplists

Now I have a fridge/freezer, I open the fridge door less often. That is because some of the stuff is in the freezer.

It is obvious a fridge is completely useless now. Take it away.

It is all down to interpretation. Sometimes there is deliberate misuse/misinterpretation. Shocking to find that out isn't it?
How did a refrigerator get involved?...

Facts are facts. You wouldn't dispute the fact that literally no one other than the small fraction of people that used it used Windows Media Center. Microsoft even said that the average time the majority of users was about a couple of minutes and mostly to look around, and then never use it again. Only those with HTPCs and Xboxes would be concerned about WMC. So it was taken out to be an addon feature as there is no reason for it to stay in Windows if it's not even being used, EVER.

The same goes for the start menu, it's been shown from Microsoft's gathered data from the Customer Improvement Program (or whatever it's called) that is on by default on EVERY PC with Windows 7 other than those who disable it (I'll rant about that later) that start menu usage was in fact, declining. If it stayed in Windows 8, it would still be in declining use. Probably by Windows 9, it would just be a simple vestige of olden days as it already has become. No one would really be using it, most would just use the Taskbar and jumplists. If it got to that point in Windows 9 or later with 8, why would that be a UI piece to keep? If it's not being used, there is a reason. Maybe it's not needed, maybe it's poorly designed, maybe there are other things people are doing that the start menu isn't needed for anymore. And also, it's a REAL pain in the crotch to use the start menu with a touchscreen in Windows 7, it's just not meant for that. The overall input scenario in the future with Windows 8 and on isn't with mouse input so much. But then again, this has been the future that Microsoft has envisioned for many, many, many, many years now. They just never acted on it with full force.

Now for my rant against the CIP disabling. There were complaints from people that intentionally disabled CIP in the enterprise environment (to combat superfluous network chatter I guess) and personally as well for some whatever deluded reason. They complained that the Start Screen wasn't designed to how they used Windows. NO FREAKING CRAP! You're involvement in improving Windows and seeing how you're using doesn't even become known to Microsoft. AT ALL. It's such a stupid thing to do, and greatly idiotic to complain about UI changes that is claimed doesn't revolved around your personal use. If that's not how you use Windows, then don't bloody disable the CIP feature then! And don't complain about changes that alter the your workflow because of that!

Good grief....
 

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Please be courteous in following my intentions of the thread. It was started for members to state facts that support opinions, whether they be for or against 8 . Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of hearing opinions without facts backing them up. If I want opinions I'll read other threads.

So far all I see are opinions, which is leading to an argument. Where are the facts to back them up?
 

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What do you mean by facts?

I'll start by stating facts about why I think...

That is an opinion.

You might inded think that is why they are doing it - that doesn't make it true.
 

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Ok, SWI2 and to all. Let's think of this thread being like a court of law. There's a judge or magistrate, a jury, prosecutor with associates, and a defense lawyer with associates. There are other court employees such as a recorder, bailiff, etc.

The prosecution team attempts to prove the defendant(s) guilty by delivering facts of guilt to the jury. They have first turn of delivering facts. The defending team attempts to uphold the defendant's innocence by attempting to prove what the prosecution has presented as false. They may also add more proof of innocence of which then the prosecution can reply. Please remember that a defendant is innocent until proven guilty, at least here in the U.S. I'm not learned about other countries in this area.

In your case, MS is innocent until proven guilty. They are a corporation that specializes in software that decided recently to diversify more with added hardware. They simply crank out products and services for a profit. That's what capitalism is. That's what makes the world go round. That's how people on this planet survive, unless one wants to live off the land by hunting for, gathering, or farming for food, clothing, and shelter.

Let me state that there were times I would've like to share my political views of corporations and the condition of America with you and others, but stating those are against forum rules.

As I've stated in my OP, facts are those that come from scientific study results, data charts/lists, a company employee statement/press release (allow me to add that these are witnesses), or the like.

With my first point I attempted to prove my line of thinking (to defend) with data that I've read or videos I've watched.

I'm sorry to say that your refrigerator analogy does not meet scientific criteria. It is a fable at most attempting to prove your opinion. You or anyone, of course, has the right to dispute what I've stated. I see you posted a book. Would you please post excerpts from the book to prove your point?

Cokie and others need to supply links to facts as well, otherwise, to me, it is just an opinion. That is all I'm attempting to accomplish with the thread.

In the end the "jury" (all members) will come to their own conclusion or educated opinion. That is my goal.
 
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You're only going to get opinions in here for or against, we aren't Microsoft and they are the ones who have the facts, after all they're the ones who made it not anyone here in this forum.:)
 

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The starting point for many is a basic qualification - e.g a 3 or 4 year full time degree. Often followed by further postgrad qualifications. Then several years working in the field. It can be quite subtle and complex.

Not something that can be taught in a few posts - or even several hundred posts.

That is why simple analogies are used.

If the fridge analogy is not clear, perhaps I should spell it out more clearly.

1. The number of times I open the fridge door is recorded.
2. I am then supplied with a fridge freezer.
3. The number of times I open the fridge door is recorded again. It is found the fridge door is opened less often.

What does that show ? Does it show why the fridge door is opened less often ? Does it show that the fridge is a useless item that should be removed?

If you had some motive for wanting fridges to be removed/banned/whatever, you could try and present those figures as "justification".

Cokie says MS claim the start menu was used somewhat less after the introduction of task bar pinning. Not surprising, really is it. Does that show the start menu is a useless item that should be removed?

The figures may or may not be accurate - let us give the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are - what do they show ?

FYI - analogies are often used in court. The defence and/or prosecution may try and draw analogies with something the jurors might understand.
 
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