If the iPad was late, ran Windows 8, it would fail too

Microsoft's Surface RT debacle has more to do with a collapsing PC market and Windows RT than hardware.
Imagine this. Apple comes out with the iPad about three years late and slaps on a stripped-down version of Windows 8.
Now imagine the consumer response.
Yeah, I wouldn't buy it either.
"Several other vendors that released [Windows] RT products had lackluster sales and difficulty clearing inventory," Rhoda Alexander, an analyst at IHS iSuppli, told CNET.
"Poor product reviews and bad press contributed to the overall problem, poisoning the water not just for Microsoft but for other brands as well," she added.
If the iPad was late, ran Windows 8, it would fail too | Microsoft - CNET News
 
iOS was basically a stripped down OSX, what's the point?
 

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People bought ios in large numbers, they didn't do the same with RT. Everybody knows that bit - he then goes on to say, he isn't sure the hybrids will be the answer for MS either.

I expect MS will sell a lot more tablets from October onwards, not because of 8.1, but because of the other factors in the marketing mix. MS have a lot of clout, and they have learned to pitch it better.
 

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iOS was basically a stripped down OSX, what's the point?

Apple really does get away with a lot of things. iOS couldn't run traditional macOS apps but nobody seems to care. Windows RT couldn't run traditional desktop apps and OMG IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD.

I remember the same criticisms when android first made its debut in tablets. People were criticizing that android sucked because it couldn't run desktop apps and that iOS was the best thing in the world because it couldn't run desktop apps either.
 

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Apple really does get away with a lot of things. iOS couldn't run traditional macOS apps but nobody seems to care. Windows RT couldn't run traditional desktop apps and OMG IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD.

Actually it is M$ that is trying to get away with something and it is killing Surface somewhat. They called it Windows RT implying that it would run traditional desktops apps. Apple did not call there tablet os OSX xx which would imply that it would run macOS apps they called it iOS leaving no doubt it would not run macOS apps.
 

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People didn't lose as much going from MacOSX to iOS. Apple stuff is already stripped down and stupid simple to start with. The people who already liked that about MacOSX, enjoyed the same thing with the iOS version of their favorite software. Apple made sure to provide built-in stuff that was similar in design and functionality to their desktop counterparts (which isn't hard, considering...) so established Apple people feel right at home with iOS. There's not much to take away! So not much lost. Apple also never conditioned their users to enjoy that much backwards compatibility. Apple also kept things pretty familiar.

Windows is different, Windows for decades carries a torch from one generation to the next as a staple desktop-oriented OS with a taskbar, resizable and movable windows, and x86 based software. Windows software tended to be more complex, with more options and features which required knowledge of a good number of keyboard combinations and using two mouse buttons effectively. The thing is, Microsoft always tried to make sure stuff from way old still worked for a long time. Windows has always stuck to this until suddenly!

Windows 8. Radical, jarring change from traditional desktop to the sudden entrance into the mobile platform. This platform oversimplifies applications and the UI itself, taking away many features in the process. How the UI is used is a jarring, radical change as well, even down to how it looks massively changed (for the worse). It's also not in any shape or form compatible with previous windows software, requiring -all new applications- to be made specifically for this platform. They forced this platform onto desktops and laptops as well, something even Apple didn't try to do. Microsoft took a well working desktop platform and put a bullet in the foot trying to kill it off themselves. Thank goodness the proper Windows 8 still has a desktop side that runs our stuff or it would have been a total disaster.

This is why Apple 'gets away' with it. It also helps that they pretty much were first to stampede the mobile market with smartphones and tablets, and they didn't do so by sacrificing their desktop environment.
 

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Agreed

I don't think that Apple's initial plan was, "Let's force OS X users to use iOS."

Unlike Microsoft's W8 plan, which was, "Let's force Windows desktop users to use our tablet GUI."
This can be seen by the way MS reacted, when they discovered that people weren't using their tablet GUI (they were using the W8DP Start Menu Hack).

MS ripped the code out of subsequent versions of W8 ("shooting themselves in the foot" in the process).
If they hadn't done, that they could have offered a simple checkbox option somewhere (hidden, of course) to turn Metro on/off (removing/restoring the Start Menu).

IMO, this would have prevented a lot of the online complaining and poor uptake of W8.
Metro lovers would have been happy.
Desktop lovers would have been happy.
MS would have been happy ($).
 

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Your opinion would have been wrong, because Nobody would have been happy. Certainly not desktop users, who would not have been able to find this hidden hack. Metro users would not be happy because, if the desktop hack actually did become common knowledge, why would anyone write Metro apps? (the OS/2 dillemna), and MS would not be happy because Users would still be dependent upon their Win32 (ie x86/64 architecture) apps, making it that much harder for ARM based devices to gain a foothold.

Your problem is that you misunderstand Microsoft's motives. It's not to make users use a tablet. It's to get users off x86 architecture dependency. They may still use x86 chips, but apps need to be able to run on any hardware platform going forward. That's what WinRT is all about.
 

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Your opinion would have been wrong, because Nobody would have been happy. Certainly not desktop users, who would not have been able to find this hidden hack.

It would be hidden in the Control Panel.
The various blogs and media mouthpieces would "advertise" its location.
Just like they have had to regarding the hidden "Boot to desktop" option (in W8.1).

Metro users would not be happy because, if the desktop hack actually did become common knowledge, why would anyone write Metro apps? (the OS/2 dillemna), and MS would not be happy because Users would still be dependent upon their Win32 (ie x86/64 architecture) apps, making it that much harder for ARM based devices to gain a foothold.

People constantly claim that Win32 programs are unsuitable for battery powered devices, but WinRT is suitable for those uses.

If this is true then Apps for phones and tablets would be written in WinRT, if RT was a easier/better development environment and/or provided "end device benefits" (i.e if consumers were to "lap them up" for whatever reason).

Your problem is that you misunderstand Microsoft's motives. It's not to make users use a tablet. It's to get users off x86 architecture dependency. They may still use x86 chips, but apps need to be able to run on any hardware platform going forward. That's what WinRT is all about.

In fact, in 2 out of the 3 quotes above, you let slip that the real reason is to force users to use a new architecture.
This architecture "just happens" to be highly suited to phones and tablets.

If it wasn't about tablets, then why all the tablet hoopla?
Why all of the whining about people not purchasing desktops?
Why introduce a touchscreen interface for desktops, if no one is buying them?

The fact is that phones and tablets are treated as disposable items (by the majority of consumers apparently).
They are replaced at a far higher rate than desktops and laptops.
MS wanted a slice of that action.

Their motives are crystal clear.
They get nothing from Win32 programs (except the ones they sell).
They want to take a cut from every bit of software that runs on their OS, just like Apple does (apart from free Apps obviously).

Take Adobe Creative Suite (the software that is used as the prime example for people not being able to swap to Linux-based operating systems).
Adobe was raking in >$1K from Creative Suite purchases (I don't know what the US price is) and MS were getting nothing.

If MS tried to "lock down" Win32, they get sued into oblivion by software companies and fined by the EU (maybe even the US Government).
WinRT was created in an attempt to bypass that problem.
 

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It is all about what MS wants.

Customers do not have to go along with that. If they have any sense, they won't lap it up and wind up totally subservient to the corporate masters. Other corporations may be attempting similar manipulations, but that is no excuse.
 

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In fact, in 2 out of the 3 quotes above, you let slip that the real reason is to force users to use a new architecture.
This architecture "just happens" to be highly suited to phones and tablets.

If it wasn't about tablets, then why all the tablet hoopla?

Sure, Phones and Tablets are important. But just as important is the server side of things. There are low-power server farm architectures based on ARM waiting in the wings that cannot be implemented because of this x86/64 architecture dependency. It's not just on the desktop, but the desktop drives the server. There are also ARM based desktop clients for low-powered uses, such as secretaries and similar people for whom even the least powerful x86 processor is way overkill. These help reduce the amount of power used by corporations by all those millions of desktops.

Then think about netbooks and traditional laptops with ARM processors that could have 25 hour battery lives because they have the ability to carry relatively large batteries. They could stay in sleep for over a year.

x86 isn't going away because it is the only thing that can run legacy apps. ARM isn't powerful enough to emulate x86. Another option could be a dual ARM/x86 processor where ARM runs your modern apps but uses x86 for legacy apps. Eventually, Win32 will be relegated to a virtual machine inside of WinRT, but only on x86 capable hardware.
 

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It is all about what MS wants.

Customers do not have to go along with that. If they have any sense, they won't lap it up and wind up totally subservient to the corporate masters. Other corporations may be attempting similar manipulations, but that is no excuse.

Customers *DO* want it. They want longer battery lives. They want smaller and lighter devices. They want cheaper devices. All of that means ARM, and they will eat it up, just as they have eaten up iOS and Android. The difference here, is that this also comes to the desktop. You can use the same applications on your phone, tablet and desktop. Except for some exceptions, that's typically not the case in the Android and iOS world (I can think of a handful, like Evernote, but all of them are pretty popular).
 

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By the way, it's funny how quickly people forget the kinds of criticism the iPad got when it first came out. "Not only is it 4x as big and 10x as heavy as an iPhone, but it has the added advantage of not being able to make calls!" and "It sounds like a feminine hygine product!". The first version had a lot of problems.
 

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Ah, but now it still beats the surface and every other windows 8 tablet hands down, and so does Android.
 

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By the way, it's funny how quickly people forget the kinds of criticism the iPad got when it first came out. "Not only is it 4x as big and 10x as heavy as an iPhone, but it has the added advantage of not being able to make calls!" and "It sounds like a feminine hygine product!". The first version had a lot of problems.

you are right. but the problem with all products is when they come to market. iPad was first and was able to define the ecosystem. android barely squeezed itself in. All the other players (Blackberry, Nokia etc.) that were the kings before now are in deep trouble and their own OS are basically meaningless.

If the iPad would show up now, it would disappear immediately. The same may happen to windows RT. Windows 8 will survive since they are x86 compatible and have a lot going for them that is actually useful (unlike iOS, x86 applications go beyond fart noises)

Maybe RT will make it if MS really puts more weight on it and is willing to spend serious money to get both more apps and cheaper devices. But all manufacturers kind of jumped ship.
 

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iOS can in no way be related to ANY aspect of Windows 8 RT. At first glance it DOES appear to be a "Sripped" down version of OSX, but when you browse the filesystem using iFile, the extreme differences become very apparent.

Has anyone "Jailbroken" or "Rooted" a Windows 8 Device? I'm wondering if the filesystem for a device is basically the same as RT would be. I havent seen any evidence of people wanting (or needing) to "jailbreak" Windows 8- But I would like to get my hands on a Windows 8 device just to see how it runs.
 

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Yes, that is why they are rushing out to buy it. ;)



It is all about what MS wants.

Customers do not have to go along with that. If they have any sense, they won't lap it up and wind up totally subservient to the corporate masters. Other corporations may be attempting similar manipulations, but that is no excuse.

Customers *DO* want it. .
 

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You conveniently ignored my point.
 

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You seem to be completely missing the point.

MS want to monetise the customers through their cloud services/subs/ads/whatever else they can think up.

The eventual aim is to get everyone into ever smaller devices that just link to their clouds. A lot of money for MS and huge costs, loss of privacy and lack of control for the consumers.

They will do that largely by offering baubles and beads. Not very different from the old cowboy movies where the Indian chief sells his kids land for a few shiny glass beads.

Customers are not going for the first big step - this whole win8 metro thing. There are plenty of reasons for that. I don't think many understand where they are being led. If they did, they would have a very valid reason to say no.

The steps along the way like moving to RT etc are just details. No point in getting bogged down in details - it should be about being able to see the wood for the trees.
 

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You seem to be completely missing the point.

MS want to monetise the customers through their cloud services/subs/ads/whatever else they can think up.
Advertisement on the web is about $40B business per year and growing; MS wanting to have a share of this recurring revenue sounds like a good business decision. Ain't no different from other companies that have been doing it for a decade at least. You don't have to use any of their services or receive their ads, if you don't want to. Unlike with some other companies, where your don't have much of a choice...

The eventual aim is to get everyone into ever smaller devices that just link to their clouds.
I have a Windows phone and it has non of the MS cloud services. Could it happen "eventually"? Yeah it could... Just like Linux taking over the desktop since, oh, at least from 1995?

A lot of money for MS and huge costs, loss of privacy and lack of control for the consumers.
You don't really believe that on the Internet you have any privacy, do you? I didn't think so...

I've been using Windows phone for over a year and Windows 8.1 for couple of weeks and seen only the "smart search in 8.1 that required additional actions to disable. Other than that, none of your claims pan out. It is not mandatory for the end-users to opt-in to MS services, that are available for people who'd prefer to use them. These services are not different from any of the "free" services offered by other companies that used by lot of people.
 

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