Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) - Install Windows 8 with

  1. #11


    Boot ROM Version: MBP81.0047.B1E
    I did some research on this. The fact that they keep calling their firmware EFI (without the U) bothers me since there is clearly a difference between UEFI and EFI.

    After some research, I'm lead to believe that it's not possible to boot Windows through UEFI on a Mac because Mac's don't have the UEFI 2.0 standard and that Boot Camp assumes that any other OS aside from OSX should be booted via MBR/BIOS.

    Interesting read btw:

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0


    I spoke to an Apple genius about it and he asked a tech person on the phone. Seems that UEFI isn't on Macs because the mac hardware does not conform to the UEFI standards, which were designed for PC's.

    I did some research and apparently Apple dont even use standard EFI 1.x, its EFI 1.10 plus some UEFI 2.0 bits.

    So we are stuck with BIOS under Boot Camp untill someone figures out a way to emulate UEFI in a rEFIt kind of way.

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #12


    Posts : 9
    Windows 8

    Some FUD.


    Quote Originally Posted by arkhi View Post
    Boot ROM Version: MBP81.0047.B1E
    I did some research on this. The fact that they keep calling their firmware EFI (without the U) bothers me since there is clearly a difference between UEFI and EFI.

    After some research, I'm lead to believe that it's not possible to boot Windows through UEFI on a Mac because Mac's don't have the UEFI 2.0 standard and that Boot Camp assumes that any other OS aside from OSX should be booted via MBR/BIOS.

    Interesting read btw:

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0


    I spoke to an Apple genius about it and he asked a tech person on the phone. Seems that UEFI isn't on Macs because the mac hardware does not conform to the UEFI standards, which were designed for PC's.

    I did some research and apparently Apple dont even use standard EFI 1.x, its EFI 1.10 plus some UEFI 2.0 bits.

    So we are stuck with BIOS under Boot Camp untill someone figures out a way to emulate UEFI in a rEFIt kind of way.
    So, having looked more into this, I know the issue with windows 7 is Microsoft's support for uefi. Windows 7 tries to use vga bios hooks to boot, which is not supported by any version of efi, though can be added by manufacturers (one of the benefits of UEFI). Macs are PC's hardware wise, with custom extensions for Apple. The main extension Apple adds is an HFS+ driver, which is not specified by the efi specs, and then the bios emulator.

    There are those that have installed custom windows 7 installers to there macs, by using an unattended installation. The down side is you don't see the screen until windows is fully loaded, and creating such an installation is non trivial.

    Windows 8 has the uefi standard video support needed, as seen by the fact that I can boot into the installer. This is most likely an issue with windows 8 installer, not Mac Pro Bios.

    This link will be interesting for your edification. I am just trying to figure out how to get the files on the boot partition.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #13


    It will be useful for my next build
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  4. #14


    @Dragorth,

    How do you know Windows 7 uses the BIOS VGA to boot since it's also capable of installing on a UEFI system? I actually made this tutorial after trying to install Windows 7 on UEFI knowing that the procedure would be the same on Win8 (install screenshots here are taken from Win7 install).

    In any case, since I don't have a Mac myself, I can't help you experiment with Win8 and give advice to the matter. The last, desperate thing I can think of is to try exFAT and see if Mac boots from it since I know new Macs support at least reading it.

    Either way, I wish you the best of luck!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #15


    Posts : 9
    Windows 8


    Quote Originally Posted by arkhi View Post
    @Dragorth,

    How do you know Windows 7 uses the BIOS VGA to boot since it's also capable of installing on a UEFI system? I actually made this tutorial after trying to install Windows 7 on UEFI knowing that the procedure would be the same on Win8 (install screenshots here are taken from Win7 install).

    In any case, since I don't have a Mac myself, I can't help you experiment with Win8 and give advice to the matter. The last, desperate thing I can think of is to try exFAT and see if Mac boots from it since I know new Macs support at least reading it.

    Either way, I wish you the best of luck!
    Since microsoft has market dominance, they can require motherboard manufacturers to provide this needed extension. Apple doesn't, since it is not needed by the spec.
    I will try your suggestion, and thanks for the help.
    Some more knowledgeable guys than I are working to bring the necessary components for win 7.
    I am afraid I left out the link, lol. Here is how I know.
    Win7 x64 booting natively via EFI (no bios emulation) - Page 4 - MacRumors Forums
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #16


    Very informative .
    Maybe you can illustrate how to boot & install a non Microsoft based operating system in a secure boot UEFI environment on an upcoming OEM machine ?

    Just to put all the nasty rumors to rest once and for all.

    Just asking..
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #17


    Posts : 9
    Windows 8


    Quote Originally Posted by gdm40 View Post
    Very informative .
    Maybe you can illustrate how to boot & install a non Microsoft based operating system in a secure boot UEFI environment on an upcoming OEM machine ?

    Just to put all the nasty rumors to rest once and for all.

    Just asking..
    Secure boot does not prevent booting other OSes. It prevents booting Unknown, unsigned, or infected OSes.

    It is up to the manufacturer to provide a switch to allow any OS to boot. I imagine that many large distributions, such as Red Hat, Ubuntu, Debian, and hopefully the BSD's will have a known key in the UEFI system. I would have to read the UEFI spec to know how updates to this list are handled, since Microsoft will presumably have different keys for each OS.

    Not to mention many will still use older OSes such as Windows XP, Vista and 7 that, as far as I know, do not have signed boot signatures. Debian and Ubuntu also already have a signed software system, making them very secure anyway, I imagine the infrastructure is in place to support these, considering that many businesses that would use these things are using these UEFI systems. Since Linux has been on the Itanium systems for some time, and all of those are some flavor of EFI, I don't believe there will be an issue with the secure boot.

    I would worry more on consumer focused suppliers that have few business partners, as they have the least incentive to provide these options. Considering that EFI seems easier to add things to, I wouldn't be surprised to be able to add these keys at the command line or just adding a file to the EFI Partition.

    Dragorth.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #18


    Australia
    Posts : 584
    Windows 8 Dev Preview x64


    Quote Originally Posted by dragorth View Post
    Considering that EFI seems easier to add things to, I wouldn't be surprised to be able to add these keys at the command line or just adding a file to the EFI Partition.
    I was under the impression that the Microsoft UEFI boot was actually a physical hardware signature (or similar) which would only allow Microsoft Windows 8 to boot? I wasn't aware there would actually be a partition that would contain the files...
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #19


    Posts : 9
    Windows 8


    Quote Originally Posted by Avalon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dragorth View Post
    Considering that EFI seems easier to add things to, I wouldn't be surprised to be able to add these keys at the command line or just adding a file to the EFI Partition.
    I was under the impression that the Microsoft UEFI boot was actually a physical hardware signature (or similar) which would only allow Microsoft Windows 8 to boot? I wasn't aware there would actually be a partition that would contain the files...
    Intel's TPM platform, whatever name they are calling it now. Yes, but as I stated, there will be a need to update that list, simply from the different OS versions of Windows, not to mention they may need to change it across the board in case hackers get ahold on the code, either a hack or the actual number. It would be chancy, in light of the different playstation 3 and Xbox hacks that already exist.

    Also, as I stated, corporations will want to test these as well. They will need to be able to modify different settings, and test out different numbers, such as an antivirus looking for a way simulate the windows boot secter, which would be my guess of where the next versions of root kits will come in.

    The TPM is only so good as the hardware, and Intel has been known to make mistakes. (Pentiums may be the best known, but are by no means the only ones, or anywhere near the most recent.)

    Like I said, I haven't taken the time to read the specs, but I am fairly sure there is a mechanism for updates, just like the old bios. Not to mention, with the bios mode, we can use something like UEFI BOOT to boot into an UEFI only OS, and bypass the Secure Boot measures. There are always ways around any limitation, just keep your eyes open, and outside of the boxes the give you to use.

    Dragorth.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #20


    Australia
    Posts : 584
    Windows 8 Dev Preview x64


    Yeah, fair enough. When you put it like that, it makes sense to have a software controller for the whole system, and as we know, pretty much every software is breakable, one way or another.
    Question is, in what layer will the controller be? If they're moving away from BIOS, where exactly are they going to put it? I don't see a system partition being a very good idea, unless they put it somewhere really sneaky and use properly good encryption techniques, right?
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) - Install Windows 8 with

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