Another question about UAC...

jtmzac

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So like a lot of people I find the new UAC/security on windows 8 a pain and have disabled UAC in the registry to actually be able to use my computer without Microsoft telling me "are you sure" like I'm an idiot all the time.

Is there any way to achieve total control of files and remove all the confirmations without losing all functionality of metro apps?

As much as I like many of the new things in windows 8 I'm having a real hard time deciding between 7 and 8. I love the look of 8, the enhanced multi-monitor support and things like native USB3.0 is nice. But not being able to use metro apps and the new search which is split into 3 sections for no reason are a real pain and is making a decision very hard.

Also Microsoft's move from clean installs to a very heavy emphasis on upgrades is very concerning. Anyone who builds and managed their own computers knows reinstalling an os that's an upgrade is just a pain.
 

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Hello jtnzac,

Yes, it does stink that while signed in the built-in Administrator account or you use the old Windows 7 and Vista method of setting the EnableLUA registry DWORD to 0 (zero) to disable completely disable UAC, it will break "Metro" Store apps preventing them from being able to run until EnableLUA is set back to 1 and the computer restarted. Use the steps in the tutorial below instead for Windows 8. The new "Metro" (Windows UI) being a separate UI than the desktop UI is the cause of this.


When you have an administrator user account type, you do have full control over you system. It's just that when you want to do anything that affects the system, system files, or other users, you need to allow (Yes in UAC prompt) first for security purposes. This way it makes it much harder for say malware to just make elevated changes to your system without you getting a UAC prompt asking if it's ok to do so.

For system files or anything that you do not have access rights to by default, you can also take ownership of and set permissions to "Allow" you "Full control" of it to then have full access to it.



Hope this helps some, :)
Shawn
 

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So like a lot of people I find the new UAC/security on windows 8 a pain and have disabled UAC in the registry to actually be able to use my computer without Microsoft telling me "are you sure" like I'm an idiot all the time.
It's not necessarily trying to protect you from yourself, but instead provide a layer of security around an application that wants to escalate on it's own. Perhaps you can trust all of your applications 100% of the time, but I would rather know when one is trying to escalate up without my knowing about it.

With that said, I've run with UAC enabled on Windows Vista (turn down the slider a bit), and Windows 7 (leave slider at default), and no changes to Windows 8 UAC. A UAC prompt for me is few and far between and clicking OK is an absolute piece of cake.

Also Microsoft's move from clean installs to a very heavy emphasis on upgrades is very concerning. Anyone who builds and managed their own computers knows reinstalling an os that's an upgrade is just a pain.
I don't upgrade anything, EVER. What makes you say they are emphasizing upgrades now?
 

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Hello jtmzac,

When you have an administrator user account type, you do have full control over you system. It's just that when you want to do anything that affects the system, system files, or other users, you need to allow (Yes in UAC prompt) first for security purposes. This way it makes it much harder for say malware to just make elevated changes to your system without you getting a UAC prompt asking if it's ok to do so.

For system files or anything that you do not have access rights to by default, you can also take ownership of and set permissions to "Allow" you "Full control" of it to then have full access to it.

Hope this helps some, :)
Shawn

I just shortened it a bit ;).

I've done pretty much all that on my windows 7 install. It took a while but I took ownership of every file on my computer.

It might seem reckless or stupid but I've never had an issue running windows 7 on minimum UAC with ownership of every file. I literally turn every security setting in IE off and I've never had a problem. The only thing I could possibly do to make even less work for me is to disable the recycle bin. I'm a power user that likes my os to just do what I tell it and let me make decisions as to what's safe and what's not.

An indicator of how confident I am is that I desperately want IE to be able to automatically save files so I don't have to click the save button. (yes I realise the security risks)

So like a lot of people I find the new UAC/security on windows 8 a pain and have disabled UAC in the registry to actually be able to use my computer without Microsoft telling me "are you sure" like I'm an idiot all the time.
It's not necessarily trying to protect you from yourself, but instead provide a layer of security around an application that wants to escalate on it's own. Perhaps you can trust all of your applications 100% of the time, but I would rather know when one is trying to escalate up without my knowing about it.

With that said, I've run with UAC enabled on Windows Vista (turn down the slider a bit), and Windows 7 (leave slider at default), and no changes to Windows 8 UAC. A UAC prompt for me is few and far between and clicking OK is an absolute piece of cake.

Also Microsoft's move from clean installs to a very heavy emphasis on upgrades is very concerning. Anyone who builds and managed their own computers knows reinstalling an os that's an upgrade is just a pain.
I don't upgrade anything, EVER. What makes you say they are emphasizing upgrades now?

I'm a perfectionist and I try to make my computer as easy to control as possible. A confirmation just to move a file just feels like Microsoft telling me I'm an idiot and it drives me nuts.

As for why Microsoft are pushing upgrades, I think the pricing makes it pretty obvious what they want consumers buying. I learnt my lesson after getting a window 7 ultimate upgrade. High end hardware and os upgrades cause headaches.
 

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As for why Microsoft are pushing upgrades, I think the pricing makes it pretty obvious what they want consumers buying. I learnt my lesson after getting a window 7 ultimate upgrade. High end hardware and os upgrades cause headaches.
You can clean install from the upgrade media.
 

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You can clean install from the upgrade media.

Without installing the previous os that was installed before the upgrade? That's what I was actually referring to.
 

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You can clean install from the upgrade media.

Without installing the previous os that was installed before the upgrade? That's what I was actually referring to.

No, a previous OS has to be on the hard drive when you start...but you can elect to clean install it without doing an upgrade. It's not 100% convenient, but just install Windows 7, clean install the WIndows 8 upgrade disc and immediately make an image. From here on out, simply restore your image rather than install.

The other option will be to forego the upgrade, and just buy the System Builder license/OEM license when it's released. That's a full install, can be moved from 1 machine to another, is suitable for a home hobbyist and will run around $100.
 

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No, a previous OS has to be on the hard drive when you start...but you can elect to clean install it without doing an upgrade. It's not 100% convenient, but just install Windows 7, clean install the WIndows 8 upgrade disc and immediately make an image. From here on out, simply restore your image rather than install.

The other option will be to forego the upgrade, and just buy the System Builder license/OEM license when it's released. That's a full install, can be moved from 1 machine to another, is suitable for a home hobbyist and will run around $100.

This is what I was referring to as a bad thing. For the informed it's just a pain to have to install then upgrade but the average consumer might lose or throw out their copy of the old os which would obviously cause problems if something happened.
 

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So like a lot of people I find the new UAC/security on windows 8 a pain and have disabled UAC in the registry to actually be able to use my computer without Microsoft telling me "are you sure" like I'm an idiot all the time.

Windows is not treating you like an idiot. In fact, it's treating you like an intelligent person, and giving you an opportunity to decide if you want an application to have elevated user rights or not. The purpose is to prevent software other than what you authorize from silently performing administrative actions on your computer.

This is the software equivalent of requiring a photo ID to withdraw money from your bank account at the bank. Would you like it if anyone could walk up to a teller, say they're you, and clean out your bank account? That would be disastrous.

Like asking for ID, it is better to place a small obstacle in the way of a legitimate user in order to ensure the integrity of the system. You may have never had a problem, but that's true only until you do.. And then you'll scream about how Microsoft's software is terrible and full of bugs and how they should have better security.

It's like the poker player that goes "all-in" on every hand. It works every time, until it doesn't. Then you're wiped out. This is *NOT* the user treating you like an idiot. It's the user asking you to take an active role in protecting the security of your computer.

UAC is not, however, only a security feature. It's also a compatibility feature. UAC includes features such as Virtual Registry and System folders that allow older programs that misbehave to work, even if they do things that would violate security (such as writing to the Program Files folder).

UAC is also what allows Internet Explorers Protected Mode to function, which makes it very hard for attackers to exploit newly found flaws in the browser.

But here's the thing most people don't know about UAC. UAC does not block, or stop you from accessing anything. UAC is what *ALLOWS* you to access otherwise protected functionality when the OS has been "locked down" (known as low-rights mode). It's like putting up a security fence around your house, and UAC is a guard at the gate that lets you through. Without that guard, you wouldn't be able to get to your own home.

UAC is what raises your privilege level to the Administrative level and allows you to do Admin work. Low-rights mode is what makes the system locked-down.

So, why does disabling UAC prevent Metro apps from functioning? Because Metro (called WinRT for Windows Run Time) is a separate subsystem, and Windows uses UAC (remember, it's a guard at a gate) to be the gatekeeper between the WinRT and Win32 (the classic applications) subsystems. Without UAC, you can't interoperate between the systems.

My point in telling you this is that this is not just an arbitrary choice. There are technical reasons behind it. And those technical reasons are based on the security architecture of Windows.

Is there any way to achieve total control of files and remove all the confirmations without losing all functionality of metro apps?

As I mentioned above... No. The reason is that without UAC there is no way for the two subsystems to communicate.

As much as I like many of the new things in windows 8 I'm having a real hard time deciding between 7 and 8. I love the look of 8, the enhanced multi-monitor support and things like native USB3.0 is nice. But not being able to use metro apps and the new search which is split into 3 sections for no reason are a real pain and is making a decision very hard.

Or, here's a thought.. re-enable UAC and take an active role in the security of your computer. Look at it as an opportunity to control what you allow to use your computer. It's like the NoScript extension for Firefox and Chrome, it puts you in control.

Personally, I don't find UAC to be an issue once Windows is setup. It can be a little annoying when you first get the OS because you're so busy poking around everywhere, but once you have things the way you want them, you almost never see a UAC prompt.

I mean, let's put it this way. Would you deliberately setup your phone to allow anyone that walked by to make international phone calls without your knowledge? Download gigabytes of movies and cause you to get big charges from your phone company? I doubt it.

Would you deliberately setup your car to allow anyone driving by to take control of your car and drive it off a cliff?

Why would you want to allow that in your computer? Just to save a few mouse clicks or button presses? The fact of the matter is this idea that the os is "treating you like an idiot" is your misinterpretation of what it's actually doing.

You're like an old man crossing the street with a semi-truck barreling down on you at 90Mph, and fighting off someone that is trying to prevent your untimely demise... Yelling about how you're being treated like an idiot, while the truck keeps right on coming.

Also Microsoft's move from clean installs to a very heavy emphasis on upgrades is very concerning. Anyone who builds and managed their own computers knows reinstalling an os that's an upgrade is just a pain.

I'm not sure what you mean. Microsoft has always offered upgrade versions of Windows. And, you can do a full, clean install using the upgrade media. You don't have to do an Upgrade install. I don't yet know whether the upgrade version will require that you put the previous OS on the disk first or not when doing a clean install from upgrade media, but this is really no different from Windows 7 if that's the case.

The only difference here is the pricing, and the pricing is simply because the PC market is going into the toilet. Microsoft has not traditionally made a lot of money from upgrade sales of new OS's, but since new PC sales (the usual way people get a new version of an OS) have taken a nosedive, they are likely trying to supplement the standard route with additional Upgrade revenue.

This is not a "heavy emphasis" on upgrades, it's just that Microsoft wants to encourage people that would otherwise not upgrade because they weren't going to buy a new PC. The $40 upgrade price is about what large OEM's pay for a copy of Windows anyways, so it's an attempt to replace the lost OEM sales with upgrade sales.
 

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Windows is not treating you like an idiot. In fact, it's treating you like an intelligent person, and giving you an opportunity to decide if you want an application to have elevated user rights or not. The purpose is to prevent software other than what you authorize from silently performing administrative actions on your computer...
Windows doesn't quite treat people like they're intelligent. If it did it would respect that there's people like me who want to run the os without confirmations everywhere and there would be more options to make it power user friendly.

You do however make some good points but your examples get a bit out there and really depend on your point of view. How someone uses their computer will vary a lot person to person. I'm very aware of what I do on my pc and I'm the only one who uses it.

If the programs and files you use/download are trustworthy there's no need to restrict them and make the user confirm their security and what they can do.

If you are careful and watch what you use and download you are preventing nearly all possible threats. The user is the main preventer of viruses/malware ect. not security software or uac.
 

My Computer

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  • OS
    Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit & Windows 8 RP 8400 64bit
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    Intel Core i7 3770k 4.5Ghz
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    30/1 Mbps
This is what I was referring to as a bad thing. For the informed it's just a pain to have to install then upgrade but the average consumer might lose or throw out their copy of the old os which would obviously cause problems if something happened.
This isn't any different than in the past, if you are upgrading an OS, you need a a previous OS. People have to be smart enough to not throw away their old OS if they purchase an upgrade. Else, they should buy a retail copy that is a full install.

Windows doesn't quite treat people like they're intelligent. If it did it would respect that there's people like me who want to run the os without confirmations everywhere and there would be more options to make it power user friendly.

You do however make some good points but your examples get a bit out there and really depend on your point of view. How someone uses their computer will vary a lot person to person. I'm very aware of what I do on my pc and I'm the only one who uses it.

If the programs and files you use/download are trustworthy there's no need to restrict them and make the user confirm their security and what they can do.

If you are careful and watch what you use and download you are preventing nearly all possible threats. The user is the main preventer of viruses/malware ect. not security software or uac.

I have to agree that you are missing the point. The point is not to "prevent" or "warn" you that an administrative task requires elevated priviledges. The point is that if you are running something like Firefox, or IE, and you stumble upon a maliciously crafted website that takes advantage of an exploit and wants to elevate to admin privs, you would get a pop-up warning which you would hopefully stop you in your tracks and make you question why your web browser needs to elevate to an admin. When you turn off UAC, you simply allow that malicious thing to execute and you put yourself at right.

You can fool yourself into believing that everything is safe, and common sense and being computer savvy will prevent you from ever experiencing a problem...but experience tells me otherwise.

Out of curiosity, how often in a day are you forced to deal with a UAC prompt? I rarely ever see them.
 

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This isn't any different than in the past, if you are upgrading an OS, you need a a previous OS. People have to be smart enough to not throw away their old OS if they purchase an upgrade. Else, they should buy a retail copy that is a full install.

I know it's the same I was simply saying that the more enticing pricing would cause more people to buy upgrades and more instances of the problem I mentioned will occur.

I have to agree that you are missing the point. The point is not to "prevent" or "warn" you that an administrative task requires elevated priviledges. The point is that if you are running something like Firefox, or IE, and you stumble upon a maliciously crafted website that takes advantage of an exploit and wants to elevate to admin privs, you would get a pop-up warning which you would hopefully stop you in your tracks and make you question why your web browser needs to elevate to an admin. When you turn off UAC, you simply allow that malicious thing to execute and you put yourself at right.

You can fool yourself into believing that everything is safe, and common sense and being computer savvy will prevent you from ever experiencing a problem...but experience tells me otherwise.

Out of curiosity, how often in a day are you forced to deal with a UAC prompt? I rarely ever see them.

I disagree. I very well understand the point. But I've been running windows 7 for 5 years on minimum UAC with ownership of ALL files including all the system files and never had an issue.

I've never had a virus or malware on any of my computers and I'm very confident in my ability to navigate the net and watch my downloads carefully enough to prevent problems.

As for how often I see UAC prompts, I have no idea. It's been a very long time since I turned it off in windows 7 and I turned it off in windows 8 as soon as I saw it. How intrusive it is really doesn't matter anyway. No matter what others think to me it's just pointless having my computer asking for confirmation for no reason.
 

My Computer

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  • OS
    Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit & Windows 8 RP 8400 64bit
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    Intel Core i7 3770k 4.5Ghz
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    Corsair 800D
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    Custom CPU Water Loop
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    Logitech G19
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    Razer Mamba 2012
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    30/1 Mbps
I disagree. I very well understand the point. But I've been running windows 7 for 5 years on minimum UAC with ownership of ALL files including all the system files and never had an issue.

I've never had a virus or malware on any of my computers and I'm very confident in my ability to navigate the net and watch my downloads carefully enough to prevent problems.

About a year ago, a coworker of mine, a solid IT guy, was searching Google for Exchange Server issues. He hit a link, and wham...a porn pic popped up, windows started opening and closing and then the computer just shut off. It was heavily infected with malware, and after about 2 hours of us working together to rid the problem, we finally through in the towel, formatted and reinstalled. Now, UAC wouldn't have stopped this either, but my point is that no matter how confident you are in your abilities and how safely you navigate the web, all it takes is 1 infected web site and down you go.

Just today at work, the girl sitting next to me called me over as a "rogue AV" scanner popped up and started scanning her box claiming she had all kinds of infections. She knew better than to continue, and immediately called me over. She managed to stumble upon a drive-by download site while using IE and picked up "System Progressive Scanner". More information on this malware can be found here: Remove System Progressive Protection (TUTORIAL). Fortunately, it was a piece of cake for me to remove, just boot up in safe mode, remove some run entries from the registry editor and her machine was back to normal. This got past our corporate firewall, got around IE9 security measures, bypassed our Trend Micro AV application. My point, she didn't get this because she was doing something idiotic on her machine, it just happened.

As for how often I see UAC prompts, I have no idea. It's been a very long time since I turned it off in windows 7 and I turned it off in windows 8 as soon as I saw it. How intrusive it is really doesn't matter anyway. No matter what others think to me it's just pointless having my computer asking for confirmation for no reason.
It's your choice. I find value in the system and leave it enabled. I probably see it once or twice a week. I feel it's a very small price to pay for the potential of saving me from a problem. I also generally use standard user accounts on a linux box and run sudo when I have to elevate. It's just something that I am used to doing and it doesn't bother me. Obviously others may feel different.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 7
    System Manufacturer/Model
    Self-Built in July 2009
    CPU
    Intel Q9550 2.83Ghz OC'd to 3.40Ghz
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    Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R rev. 1.1, F12 BIOS
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    Windows and Linux enthusiast. Logitech G35 Headset.
About a year ago, a coworker of mine, a solid IT guy, was searching Google for Exchange Server issues. He hit a link, and wham...a porn pic popped up, windows started opening and closing and then the computer just shut off. It was heavily infected with malware, and after about 2 hours of us working together to rid the problem, we finally through in the towel, formatted and reinstalled. Now, UAC wouldn't have stopped this either, but my point is that no matter how confident you are in your abilities and how safely you navigate the web, all it takes is 1 infected web site and down you go.
Something like this is certainly a possibility but I'm willing to take the risk.

Just today at work, the girl sitting next to me called me over as a "rogue AV" scanner popped up and started scanning her box claiming she had all kinds of infections. She knew better than to continue, and immediately called me over. She managed to stumble upon a drive-by download site while using IE and picked up "System Progressive Scanner". More information on this malware can be found here: Remove System Progressive Protection (TUTORIAL). Fortunately, it was a piece of cake for me to remove, just boot up in safe mode, remove some run entries from the registry editor and her machine was back to normal. This got past our corporate firewall, got around IE9 security measures, bypassed our Trend Micro AV application. My point, she didn't get this because she was doing something idiotic on her machine, it just happened.
This falls into what I was saying before, sort of. Isn't it more likely that the user somehow triggered the event rather than a random piece of software just went through your firewall and the virus software? Either way like I said before its an acceptable risk to me. I must also point out that what I use the net for is downloading drivers, WoW, Skype and reading the occasional forums. I generally don't do any casual browsing and I stay miles away from social media. What I do is hardly high risk. I haven't seen one of those bad fake virus scans in years.

It's your choice. I find value in the system and leave it enabled. I probably see it once or twice a week. I feel it's a very small price to pay for the potential of saving me from a problem. I also generally use standard user accounts on a linux box and run sudo when I have to elevate. It's just something that I am used to doing and it doesn't bother me. Obviously others may feel different.
I would see it considerably more than once or twice a week if I had it on. I'm not sure how much though as my hard drives are messed up at the moment and I had the bad idea of using my windows live account with windows 8 which has caused other problems.

I've grown up on windows and despise Linux after trying it a few times. I want quick and efficient. Using command lines all the time especially since I type quite slow isn't the way to go for me. If I feel like using a command line I'll just use cmd to shutdown my computer instead of using the batch file.

It seems we simply have very contrasting opinions because you have experience in business IT where as I'm simply a personal user.
 

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    Corsair 800D
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    Logitech G19
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    Razer Mamba 2012
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    30/1 Mbps
Windows doesn't quite treat people like they're intelligent. If it did it would respect that there's people like me who want to run the os without confirmations everywhere and there would be more options to make it power user friendly.

The OS has to prove the most benefit for the most people. Microsoft DOES give you the ability to turn it off, but doing so carries some consequences. Much like if you decide to take out the airbags on your car.

I'm very aware of what I do on my pc and I'm the only one who uses it.

If the programs and files you use/download are trustworthy there's no need to restrict them and make the user confirm their security and what they can do.

If you are careful and watch what you use and download you are preventing nearly all possible threats. The user is the main preventer of viruses/malware ect. not security software or uac.

This is really my point. I don't mean to be insulting, but the fact of the matter is that you don't really understand the risks you're taking. The fact that you believe that because you're the only one using your computer means you're safe is illustrative of that.

Have you ever heard of "drive-by" malware? This is where an attacker has compromised a server, and not just sketchy servers, but all kinds of servers from legitimate sites... and they trick the server to attack your web browser and install malware. Once installed, if there is no UAC or Browser sandboxing, then that code can run as the administrator and do things like install secret email servers, or turn your computer into a Tor node.

What's so big about that? It means your computer could send gigabytes of spam messages, and could potentially get your computer blocked by your ISP, or rack up overage charges, or worse... have the FBI show up at your door and accuse you of distributing child pornography, or question you in regards to communications with Terrorists.

That's not scare mongering. It happens. If you're LUCKY, they might just install a keylogger and get all your usernames and passwords and then drain your bank account.

The thing is, if you understood how software works, you would understand that any software that communicates over the internet has the potential to be used for this sort of attack. Browsers, email clients, Media Players, Network based games... Anything that reads data from a server has the potential, if the programmer is not careful (and many times even if they are) to allow what's called "arbitrary code execution vulnerabilities". This means they send data in a format that is unexpected, which causes the parsing software to "crash" in a way that allows software written by the attacker to be executed by your computer.

This code can then download other code and install it, typically stealthfully, using techniques called a "rootkit" that installs special software that hides itself from you (you can't see it in Explorer, or Task Manager, or whatever).

UAC, and particularly the low-rights techniques are designed so that if and when a flaw in software is discovered, and used to attack you, it's mitigated because the software only runs as a locked down users and cannot install its own software or drivers to take control of your system.

I will repeat this. It doesn't matter if you are "careful" and only go to places you trust. Those places can be compromised (and they have. Major sites have been found to be spewing malware). It doesn't matter if you're the only one using your computer. It doesn't matter if you think you know everything your computer is doing.

If you take these risks, it's very likely that you will eventually be compromised. You may not even know it. Lots of people have malware on their systems for years. The well-designed malware can lay hidden, and doesn't expose itself by making your computer run slowly or causing strange behavior.

I'm not saying UAC is perfect, and that it will prevent every possible situation like this, but not using it greatly increases your risks. It's basically as bad as using XP (and that's pretty damn bad).

But i'm not going to argue. If you don't want to use UAC, that's perfectly fine. I just want you to know the risks... you say you know them, but from what you've said, it appears you have some misconceptions about what is and isn't safe. I also want to make sure you understand that when you disable UAC, it's not just UAC, it's lots of other things as well.

Some people have to experience the consequences before they will take them seriously. I hope that's not you, because the possible consequences can be pretty nasty.
 

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    Intel i7 3770K
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But I've been running windows 7 for 5 years on minimum UAC with ownership of ALL files including all the system files and never had an issue.

How have you been running a 3 year old OS for 5 years? Even if you ran the betas, they were only really available about 6 months before the release (7 had a very short beta cycle).

Minimum UAC? You mean you turned the slider down? That did not turn off UAC, that just turned off the warnings.
 
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My Computer

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    Windows 8.1 Pro
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    Intel i7 3770K
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    Gigabyte Z77X-UD4 TH
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    16GB DDR3 1600
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    nVidia GTX 650
    Sound Card
    Onboard Audio
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Auria 27" IPS + 2x Samsung 23"
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1440 + 2x 2048x1152
    Hard Drives
    Corsair m4 256GB, 2 WD 2TB drives
    Case
    Antec SOLO II
    Keyboard
    Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000
    Mouse
    Logitech MX
This falls into what I was saying before, sort of. Isn't it more likely that the user somehow triggered the event rather than a random piece of software just went through your firewall and the virus software?
Yes, she did trigger the event by using her computer. She was also using IE at the time and I think was researching shipping charges for overnight shipping something to a customer when it popped up.

But this is my point, I'm also searching on Google for things that I need more information about. I click on the links which are returned to my searches. I visit forum boards such as this very board. I click on links that people post here to stories which seem interesting. I have no way at all to know what the end result will be clicking on these very links. Just because it's a site that I trust and recognize does not guarantee it will be safe 100% of the time

Either way like I said before its an acceptable risk to me. I must also point out that what I use the net for is downloading drivers, WoW, Skype and reading the occasional forums. I generally don't do any casual browsing and I stay miles away from social media. What I do is hardly high risk. I haven't seen one of those bad fake virus scans in years.
Well, you are aware of the risk and that is all that matters. You make it sound like you believe you are immune to the issue based upon your surfing habits, but you never know when that occasional forum will get hijacked and then hijack you. I see those random rogue AV drive by things about every 3-6 months either with friends or coworkers who get a popup.

I would see it considerably more than once or twice a week if I had it on. I'm not sure how much though as my hard drives are messed up at the moment and I had the bad idea of using my windows live account with windows 8 which has caused other problems.
It really comes down to the types of apps that you run. I have Windows 7 set at the default which does NOT prompt for UAC when I launch something that typically requires UAC. For example, right click on My Computer and choose Manage. That has the UAC shield, but since I choose that option, it didn't prompt me at all.

The apps that I notice prompting for UAC for me include

  • Malwarebytes: I launch this probably once per month to scan..so no biggie
  • Acronis True Image Home: I launch this every 2 months or so to take an image...so no biggie.
  • Ccleaner prompts, but I don't use this with any regularity...only if I have a probem.

The overwhelming majority of apps that I run everyday, do not prompt at all
  • Word, Excel, Outlook
  • Chrome
  • Microsoft Lync
  • VMWare Worsktation
  • Dropbox
  • Media Monkey
  • RDP client
  • Putty
  • Filezilla client
  • Windows PowerShell ICE
  • VMWare vShere client
  • Cisco anyconnect VPN Client
  • TrueCrypt
  • VisionApp RDP client
  • Sandboxie
  • Notepad++
  • IMGburn
  • BoxCryptor

I've grown up on windows and despise Linux after trying it a few times. I want quick and efficient. Using command lines all the time especially since I type quite slow isn't the way to go for me. If I feel like using a command line I'll just use cmd to shutdown my computer instead of using the batch file.
I grew up first with DOS and then moved into Windows. The overwhelming majority of my time up until around 1999-2000 was spent on Microsoft systems. I started learning and using Linux back then and use it a ton today.

I'm very comfortable on a command line, and for many things, much prefer it. So much easier to write setup guides and documentation when you can provide a set of commands that people can simply cut and paste into an ssh windows...since they never have to type anything there are no typos.

At my shop, we run a ton of web servers. It simply doesn't make sense to pay Microsoft licensing to run an MS server to run apache web servers. Instead, we can use Linux servers, running Apache and pay nothing. Same thing for our public FTP server, no reason to pay MS a server CAL and get the Internet Connector license which costs thousands, when I can quickly set up a CentOS box, running whichever FTP app I choose in a matter of about 5 minutes at no cost. My entire FTP configuration is 13 lines in a single file. I install the ftp server, copy in the 13 lines, restart the service and we are back in business. For me, that's super fast and efficient.

For lots of other things, like domain controllers, and file servers, and Microsoft SQL Servers, and SharePoint servers, and Microsoft Dynamics and Microsoft Exchange...these are the best tools for accomplishing our needs and we utilize Windows here as well as on the desktop as it's the best tool for the job.

IIt seems we simply have very contrasting opinions because you have experience in business IT where as I'm simply a personal user.
Very true, and not trying to prove you right or wrong....just giving you the other side of the story in case you are interested.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 7
    System Manufacturer/Model
    Self-Built in July 2009
    CPU
    Intel Q9550 2.83Ghz OC'd to 3.40Ghz
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R rev. 1.1, F12 BIOS
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    8GB G.Skill PI DDR2-800, 4-4-4-12 timings
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    Intel X25-M 80GB Gen 2 SSD
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    Corsair 620HX modular
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    Antec P182
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    stock
    Keyboard
    ABS M1 Mechanical
    Mouse
    Logitech G9 Laser Mouse
    Internet Speed
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    Other Info
    Windows and Linux enthusiast. Logitech G35 Headset.
How have you been running a 3 year old OS for 5 years? Even if you ran the betas, they were only really available about 6 months before the release (7 had a very short beta cycle).

Minimum UAC? You mean you turned the slider down? That did not turn off UAC, that just turned off the warnings.
That was a mistake. I just got the year mixed up. I did have access to the 7 beta before the public release thanks to a friend anyway.

I realise it's different. If the minimum UAC setting on windows 8 was the same as window 7 there wouldn't even be a problem. I have nothing against UAC, I just want to turn all the warnings/confirmations off.

In regard to your longer post I understand it may seem like I am completely ignoring serious security risks and I am somewhat but not to the degree that you outline. You've provided me with information which I've taken under consideration but my opinion remains the same. I can see how much data goes in and out of my computer thanks to a gadget I use. As for my computer becoming a slave or the AFP (Australian federal police. It's our FBI) showing up at my door it's a risk that doesn't bother me. I should also point out I don't access bank accounts or anything that sensitive on this computer anyway.

The main point is we have very different definitions of acceptable risk. Let's just leave it at that.

Well, you are aware of the risk and that is all that matters. You make it sound like you believe you are immune to the issue based upon your surfing habits, but you never know when that occasional forum will get hijacked and then hijack you. I see those random rogue AV drive by things about every 3-6 months either with friends or coworkers who get a popup.
I apologise if that's what you read from my comments because that's not what I meant. I understand the risks and wasn't trying to say that I was immune. I was simply saying that I have reduced risk because of my experience and browsing habits.

Very true, and not trying to prove you right or wrong....just giving you the other side of the story in case you are interested.
And I appreciate the effort. I'm all for the sharing of knowledge and experience in a discussion.
 

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    Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit & Windows 8 RP 8400 64bit
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    Intel Core i7 3770k 4.5Ghz
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    4x4GB Corsair 1600Mhz 7-8-8-24
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    nVidia GTX680
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    Creative Sound Blaster Recon 3D Fatal1ty Champion
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    Corsair F120, Samsung 830 256GB, 3x Hitachi 2TB 5400 in Raid 5
    PSU
    Corsair AX850
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    Corsair 800D
    Cooling
    Custom CPU Water Loop
    Keyboard
    Logitech G19
    Mouse
    Razer Mamba 2012
    Internet Speed
    30/1 Mbps
I understand the risks and wasn't trying to say that I was immune. I was simply saying that I have reduced risk because of my experience and browsing habits.
But what I am trying to say, is that the internet is a dangerous place and stuff happens to good sites all of the time. You certainly can reduce your risks by not visiting certain sites, but it's not possible to eliminate that risk entirely regardless of how careful you are. Unless you run Sandboxie or completely isolated within a virtual machine.

It's a philosophical debate for me really. I hear people say that know exactly what they are doing and use common sense and that's all it takes. I personally have no ability to believe or trust in that. If I wanted to crack this website, and infect it with some or drive-by malware that would infect your machine just by visiting...how would you know that it would be unsafe to visit this particular site on the particular date that I made the change? Sure, for the previous year it was safe....but what about tomorrow.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and keep the conversation alive.

Very true, and not trying to prove you right or wrong....just giving you the other side of the story in case you are interested.
And I appreciate the effort. I'm all for the sharing of knowledge and experience in a discussion.[/QUOTE]
 

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System One

  • OS
    Windows 7
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    Intel Q9550 2.83Ghz OC'd to 3.40Ghz
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R rev. 1.1, F12 BIOS
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    8GB G.Skill PI DDR2-800, 4-4-4-12 timings
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    EVGA 1280MB Nvidia GeForce GTX570
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC899A 8 channel onboard audio
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    23" Acer x233H
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    1920x1080
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    Intel X25-M 80GB Gen 2 SSD
    Western Digital 1TB Caviar Black, 32MB cache. WD1001FALS
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    Corsair 620HX modular
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    Antec P182
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    stock
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    ABS M1 Mechanical
    Mouse
    Logitech G9 Laser Mouse
    Internet Speed
    15/2 cable modem
    Other Info
    Windows and Linux enthusiast. Logitech G35 Headset.
But what I am trying to say, is that the internet is a dangerous place and stuff happens to good sites all of the time. You certainly can reduce your risks by not visiting certain sites, but it's not possible to eliminate that risk entirely regardless of how careful you are. Unless you run Sandboxie or completely isolated within a virtual machine.

It's a philosophical debate for me really. I hear people say that know exactly what they are doing and use common sense and that's all it takes. I personally have no ability to believe or trust in that. If I wanted to crack this website, and infect it with some or drive-by malware that would infect your machine just by visiting...how would you know that it would be unsafe to visit this particular site on the particular date that I made the change? Sure, for the previous year it was safe....but what about tomorrow.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and keep the conversation alive.
I would have responded sooner but I was asleep.

To continue the discussion, of course you can't eliminate all risk. It becomes a debate of what's an acceptable risk. The problem is that evaluating that isn't exactly simple as there is many different factors to account for. You have to take into account user's computer habits, where they're located and of course the chance that they might just be the person to get that 1 in a million virus.

The problem is these many different factors would make it a lot harder to give statistical chances of problems being caused. At least something like vehicle crashes over a year in a country is pretty easy to measure. This leaves the definition of safe very varied depending on peoples opinions and personal experiences. This is very obvious when looking at the average home user where businesses and corporations usually employ and much stricter security regiment and follow a much stricter version of "better safe than sorry".

Despite this being a digital issue it can still be compared somewhat to real life risk assessment for various non-digital issues. The problem is comparing the risk of something with statistics against something like the chance of a pc infection like I outlined before. I would like to think I have more chance having a motorbike accident than my pc being infected.

All said though even with factors taken into account chance is chance and people's opinions of what's acceptable risk regarding chance is really the deciding factor in the matter.
 

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    Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit & Windows 8 RP 8400 64bit
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    Intel Core i7 3770k 4.5Ghz
    Motherboard
    ASUS Maximus V Extreme
    Memory
    4x4GB Corsair 1600Mhz 7-8-8-24
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    nVidia GTX680
    Sound Card
    Creative Sound Blaster Recon 3D Fatal1ty Champion
    Monitor(s) Displays
    3x Dell U2311H 23" IPS
    Screen Resolution
    3x 1920x1080 in Extended 5760x1080
    Hard Drives
    Corsair F120, Samsung 830 256GB, 3x Hitachi 2TB 5400 in Raid 5
    PSU
    Corsair AX850
    Case
    Corsair 800D
    Cooling
    Custom CPU Water Loop
    Keyboard
    Logitech G19
    Mouse
    Razer Mamba 2012
    Internet Speed
    30/1 Mbps
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