Put the $%*!# Start menu back - former director of Mac Platform Market

SIW2

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Interesting article, I don't share his view that Win8 looks nice, nevertheless, it is well thought out and argued:

Mobile Opportunity: Fear and Loathing and Windows 8


Productivity and information creation tasks are compromised to make the OS more attractive for content consumption


I've spent the last several weeks asking myself why Microsoft chose to remove some Windows 7 features and exaggerate the prospects for Windows 8.

There are many possible explanations. It could just be arrogance -- they believe they can force customers to do what they want. It could be an excess of designer zeal -- designers always think people will fall in love with their creations once they try them.

But it could also be insecurity. To me, it feels like Microsoft is in a quiet panic.


If the Windows users are enthusiastic, Microsoft prospers. If they're passive, Microsoft suffers. If they turn negative. Microsoft dies a gruesome death. So you'd think that Microsoft would do everything in its power to make current Windows users feel comfortable and excited about moving to Windows 8. Instead, they're being confronted with deliberate incompatibilities, indifference toward their needs, and a preview campaign for Windows 8 that has already disenchanted some of the most enthusiastic Windows users.
 

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Greed and iPanic

I think that it's greed and iPanic.
 

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    HDD Upgraded - 2010-08-11, 2011-08-24,
I think that you mean speculators, not investors.

You know, the guys that crashed the World's economy.
 

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    Ubuntu 10.04 (64 bit) replaced with Linux Mint 14 MATE (64 bit) - 2013-01-14
    RAM & Graphics Card Upgraded - 2013-01-13
    Monitor Upgraded - 2012-04-20
    System Upgraded - 2011-05-21, 2010-07-14
    HDD Upgraded - 2010-08-11, 2011-08-24,
OMG! I read half his article, then got to the video, I stomached half of that, and I had to close it out! There's somewhat of a learning curve to any new OS and any new product. I believe one should one should learn a new product at least to the 8 on a 10 scale before one critiques the product. Mercedes-Benz did make a car that had a joy stick instead of the steering wheel, gas pedal, and the break. Interesting concept to say the least. I should learn how to drive it, then critique on it.

There's one thing I have to say to Michael....Learn more about 8 then use SHORTCUT KEYS!!!! Forget the all-unproductive, make-our-hand-fall-asleep, and carpal-tunnel-syndrome-potential mouse! They invented this thing called a keyboard.

When 8 boots up to the startup screen push ENTER!
When it reaches the login screen, type your password, and push ENTER!
When it enters the start screen, start typing the name of an app, doc, pic, folder, or whatever you want to use, and push what? ENTER!!!
So there's no start menu on the desktop. Push Windows key at any time! It takes you to the Metro start page. Repeat the above step.

For your convenience so you don't have to take the time to open the HELP file to learn something, I've listed SHORTCUT KEYS below. Some of them are probably familiar to you.

If you do take the time to open the Help file, paste this in search [ Mouse and keyboard: What's new in Windows 8 Release Preview ],
pick the first option, select all, copy, paste to a doc app, and save a copy for yourself.

Open the charms (Search, Share, Start, Devices, and Settings).
All charms: Windows logo key+C
Search charm: Windows logo key+Q
Share charm: Windows logo key+H
Start charm: Windows logo key
Devices charm: Windows logo key+K
Settings charm: Windows logo key+I

Search your PC (apps, settings, and files), the web, or within an app.
If you’re on Start, just start typing your search term.
If you want to see a list of all apps on your PC, right-click the Start screen, and then click All apps.
Search within apps or find an app: Windows logo key+Q
Search settings: Windows logo key+W
Search files: Windows logo key+F
Go to Start: Windows logo key
Get to commands and context menus: Windows logo key+Z
Use Tab or arrows keys to highlight things, and then press the space bar or Enter.
Right-click in open space for more general commands, like New and Refresh.
Right-click items (like a photos, app tiles, and email messages) to see commands related to that item.
Switch between recently used apps: Windows logo key+Tab
Snap an app to see two apps at the same time: Windows logo key+Period
Point to the upper-left corner. When the app appears, drag it to snap the app to either side of the screen.
You can also point to the upper-left corner and then move the pointer down to see a list of apps you've used recently. Click and drag the app you want to snap.
Notes
•The Start screen can't be snapped.
•The desktop is treated as a single app.
• Your screen resolution must be 1366 x 768 to snap apps. To check this setting open Screen Resolution in Control Panel
Open the desktop: Windows logo key+D
Zoom in or out: Ctrl+Plus sign to zoom in
Ctrl+Minus sign to zoom out
On Start, use the magnify Icon in the lower-right corner of Start in the lower-right corner or Ctrl+Scrollwheel
Close an app: Alt+F4
Shut down: 1. Press Ctrl+Alt+Del.
2. Use the Tab key to move to the Power icon. A list of shutdown options appears.
3. Use the up or down arrow keys to get to the option you want.
4. Press Enter.

Have a good day :cool:
 

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This:
Learn more about 8 then use SHORTCUT KEYS!!!! Forget the all-unproductive, make-our-hand-fall-asleep, and carpal-tunnel-syndrome-potential mouse! They invented this thing called a keyboard.

and this:

When it enters the start screen, start typing the name of an app, doc, pic, folder, or whatever you want to use, and push what? ENTER!!!

go against the entire Metro concept. The purpose of Metro to get you away from the keyboard more than any previous OS. I can't think of a more convoluted way of selecting a program than typing on a screen of icons. This is progress? Not just that, but not many would know how to do that unless they were told, or messed around and found out by accident or luck or process of elimination, etc. Is it easy to learn? Of course it's easy. That's not the point. The point is that there is way too much in Metro that's hidden. The fact that you have to explain this stuff (and more) to people is yet another sign of terrible design.
 

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I think it's interesting that a former apple employee thinks the metro design is cool and sleek. Hmm....

Steve Wozniak has a Nokia Lumia 900 running Windows Phone 7 and absolutely adores it. He says it's his number two device and is far better than his droid x moto 4.0 vanilla razr extreme edge phone. He even said the interface design of metro was like "Microsoft reincarnated steve jobs and designed it."

I've also heard some hard core apple even think it's pretty different and cool and modern.
 

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    x2 3 TB Toshibas
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    Internet Explorer 11
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    Windows Defender, but I might go back on KIS 2014
I hear you, Colonel, but is not Metro designed more for touch to use across a variety of devices? Isn't that what M$ is trying to accomplish with 8? But, if one is using a PC with no touch, is not the keyboard a much more effective device to use to navigate than the mouse? Perhaps I'm being partial because I hate the mouse. I upgraded to a M$ Arc thinking I would enjoy the mouse again to no avail. All in all, I use more keyboard than anything to navigate on the PC in 8. I'm also thinking of upgrading to a touch screen as a primary screen and using my current as a second now that I have 8.

Also, I hear you on the learning curve. I will stress again, There's somewhat of a learning curve to any new OS and any new product.

Bottom line, one doesn't have to learn all the shortcut keys to get around. Just a few.
 

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  • OS
    8.1 Pro X64
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    System Manufacturer/Model
    Acer T690
    CPU
    Intel Pentium D Dual Core
    Motherboard
    Acer/Intel E946GZ
    Memory
    2GB (max upgrade)
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3000 - PCI Express x16
    Sound Card
    Integrated RealTek ALC888 high-definition audio with 7.1 channel audio support
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Acer AL1917W A LCD
    Screen Resolution
    1440 X 900
    Hard Drives
    350 GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10
    Thumb drives
    PSU
    Standard 250 watt
    Case
    Desktop 7.2" (183mm) W x 17.5" (445mm) L x 14.5"
    Cooling
    Dual case fans + CPU fan
    Keyboard
    Acer Windows PS/2
    Mouse
    Wireless Microsoft Arc
    Internet Speed
    54mbp/s
    Browser
    IE11
    Antivirus
    Defender
    Other Info
    Office Pro 2013 / Nokia Lumia 1520 Windows Phone 8.1DP GDR1
This:
Learn more about 8 then use SHORTCUT KEYS!!!! Forget the all-unproductive, make-our-hand-fall-asleep, and carpal-tunnel-syndrome-potential mouse! They invented this thing called a keyboard.

and this:

When it enters the start screen, start typing the name of an app, doc, pic, folder, or whatever you want to use, and push what? ENTER!!!

go against the entire Metro concept. The purpose of Metro to get you away from the keyboard more than any previous OS. I can't think of a more convoluted way of selecting a program than typing on a screen of icons. This is progress? Not just that, but not many would know how to do that unless they were told, or messed around and found out by accident or luck or process of elimination, etc. Is it easy to learn? Of course it's easy. That's not the point. The point is that there is way too much in Metro that's hidden. The fact that you have to explain this stuff (and more) to people is yet another sign of terrible design.

It took me a month to realise that my iPad could multitask and use a 4 finger swipe to change Apps. Even longer to find out that my Apps weren't closing down even after closing down the iPad.
There is an actual book to learn IOS which is supposedly easy to use.
 

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Thank you, Bill. All I'm saying is that people should take more time to learn a product. I've been using 8 RP for about 10 days and I'm getting around in it pretty well. I didn't use the other previews. Dove right into RP. I rate myself about a 5 in 10 scale of PC savvy. I'm thinking if I can learn this anyone can, although I'm not in IT nor have to sit at it all day. I use it for my building business records, estimating, email, etc. I'll let the Pros decide the final say on 8.

Just for the record, I must make a correction on the search while in Metro start page as I stated in an earlier post above. When one is on that page and starts typing, the search pops up at the right. As one types, option places start to appear. I stated one can find "app, doc, pic, folder, or whatever you want to use". The folder search is not entirely true. It will find some folders, but not all. For example, if I type pictures, the pictures app appears to the left and other folders, files, and settings appear below the search box. If I type C:/ then "No apps match your search" appears on the left but permissible-to-view folders show up below the search box. If I arrow down to any one of those folders and press enter, the folder appears in Windows Explorer in the desktop.
 

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    8.1 Pro X64
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    Intel Pentium D Dual Core
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    Acer/Intel E946GZ
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    Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3000 - PCI Express x16
    Sound Card
    Integrated RealTek ALC888 high-definition audio with 7.1 channel audio support
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Acer AL1917W A LCD
    Screen Resolution
    1440 X 900
    Hard Drives
    350 GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10
    Thumb drives
    PSU
    Standard 250 watt
    Case
    Desktop 7.2" (183mm) W x 17.5" (445mm) L x 14.5"
    Cooling
    Dual case fans + CPU fan
    Keyboard
    Acer Windows PS/2
    Mouse
    Wireless Microsoft Arc
    Internet Speed
    54mbp/s
    Browser
    IE11
    Antivirus
    Defender
    Other Info
    Office Pro 2013 / Nokia Lumia 1520 Windows Phone 8.1DP GDR1
There have been lots of observations by users about the UI changes, how it is optimized for tablets, it is far from from ideal for their existing users, it is awkward, annoying, and so on.

Those things are true.

If that was all, many would overlook the UI annoyances as an inevitable part of a first attempt.


However, it goes deeper than that.

What many find utterly repugnant is the attempt to force users to the MS clouds.

The removal of the start menu is an example of that. Users are thrust to the start screen with it's aggressive marketing of MS online services. That is why they took it out - not because it is in any way a good thing for users.

There has been a pattern of this kind of behaviour .

I don't know what is driving MS to behave like this, but to many it smacks of arrogance, and/or treating customers like idiots.

It might just be blind panic as Mike suggests - I don't know.

I do know it is an appalling mistake.
 

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    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
To pretend everything is rosy would be to condone this kind of behaviour.

It would send a message , not to just to MS , but to all large corporations that they can push people around.

I cannot knowingly do that.

It may surprise some who have only seen me on this forum to find I have been a big MS supporter.

I do not want them to fail.

The consequences of their actions are widespread - people's jobs around the world depend on them.

They must rethink what they are doing.

It may be too late for this o/s.

I have no doubt they can produce something excellent - looks like it will have to be next time.

It is dangerous.

If they don't get it right next time - then they will be in all kinds of trouble.

It is possible they may not wait 3yrs for the next one - depending how badly win8 limps along.
 

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    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin
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    PC/Desktop
Thank you, Bill. All I'm saying is that people should take more time to learn a product. I've been using 8 RP for about 10 days and I'm getting around in it pretty well. I didn't use the other previews. Dove right into RP. I rate myself about a 5 in 10 scale of PC savvy. I'm thinking if I can learn this anyone can, although I'm not in IT nor have to sit at it all day. I use it for my building business records, estimating, email, etc. I'll let the Pros decide the final say on 8.

Just for the record, I must make a correction on the search while in Metro start page as I stated in an earlier post above. When one is on that page and starts typing, the search pops up at the right. As one types, option places start to appear. I stated one can find "app, doc, pic, folder, or whatever you want to use". The folder search is not entirely true. It will find some folders, but not all. For example, if I type pictures, the pictures app appears to the left and other folders, files, and settings appear below the search box. If I type C:/ then "No apps match your search" appears on the left but permissible-to-view folders show up below the search box. If I arrow down to any one of those folders and press enter, the folder appears in Windows Explorer in the desktop.

your making the same mistake microsoft is, your assuming people want change your assuming people have the time to relearn something that should be familiar to them already, do you think a company has the time to lose 10-20 days of work time just so their staff can work out how to use the o/s? don't think so somehow...

people working from home? nope they can't afford to waste days learning an o/s

gamers? sure they probably can..providing they don't use their pc's for work.

so i find it pointlessly easy to use the os, i have spare time to do that and i get paid to do it as well, but thats me, and doesn't account for everyone out there that relies on familiar upgrades so they can minimise down time in the work place to keep productivity high.
 

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All I'm saying is that people should take more time to learn a product.

I did learn it. That's the whole point - knowing exactly what Metro is and does, I've discovered it doesn't work for me. Why is this so hard to understand?
 

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    Radeon HD 6790
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    Acer AJ15
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    OCZ ModXStream 700W
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I hear you two. Somehow I knew that some Pros would help me to evaluate the product. I appreciate that.

Like I stated, I'm a moderate user. I don't sit at it all day, although I use a PC mostly for a building business and social communication.

SWI2 - The Cloud is a marvelous tool, is it not? I'm just getting into that myself via SkyDrive. We can access our files anywhere in the world with any device and possibly even if we're on the space station. Is that not what M$ is trying to accomplish? Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm just getting into it, but can we configure 8 to access other cloud services? Is M$ really forcing us to use theirs? They don't have a monopoly on the cloud, do they? For example, I have 2 Live email accounts, one for personal and one for business. I configured another Gmail account which I use for general purposes. The email app tile, which is turned on live, is already communicating with me that I have mail. It scrolls through the new emails in all three accounts. I mean how communicable and productive is that? Then I have the choice of reading them or not. In my 7 OS I had to configure Live mail to open and sign me in on boot. It took quite long. 8 boots up in 2-1/2 diving busy donuts thus far. way faster! I also have the email app tile as #1 in Metro start, which was default on setup. I simply push enter and it opens. How convenient is that?! Or I can arrow key to any app tile, push enter, and it opens. Desktop is my #2. I'm loving the Metro live tiles. To me, Metro is a start UI that replaces the start menu. It does really help me to be more organized and productive just as they advertise it to be.

Gazz9496 - I hear you on production. You probably know about it more than I ever will. I don't own a company with lets say...1,000 employees as an example. But if I did and had the capital to do so, I would take 1,000 non-touch monitors and 1,000 mice and sell them, donate them to charity & write it off, or throw them in the trash, because to me their non-productive. Then I would buy 1,000 touch monitors and forget the mice to use touch monitors. Then as the #1 Metro tile on all my employees' Metro start page I would have it linked to a doc file with all the shortcut keys listed in it. Then tell them to open it and learn it. I don't think it would take but a few days. If they're too stupid to learn them, then I would fire them to replace them with someone who can. The next tile would be the Help. It opens to basically what's new in 8. Just as it did in all previous OSs. I would instruct them to learn it, including the touch screen. If they're too stupid to learn it, then I would fire them to replace them with someone who can. I would do this to any tradesman I hire that's too stupid to learn, for we are all learning something new every day. If I don't keep up with new building products, tools, building methods, and management, I am doomed!

Overall, M$ is just trying to link us all with various devices to a lot of data of our choosing. This has inspired me to configure my VZ Droid2 to a cloud, whether it be M$, Google, or anyone else. But rest assured, I will change.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    8.1 Pro X64
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    Acer T690
    CPU
    Intel Pentium D Dual Core
    Motherboard
    Acer/Intel E946GZ
    Memory
    2GB (max upgrade)
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3000 - PCI Express x16
    Sound Card
    Integrated RealTek ALC888 high-definition audio with 7.1 channel audio support
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Acer AL1917W A LCD
    Screen Resolution
    1440 X 900
    Hard Drives
    350 GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10
    Thumb drives
    PSU
    Standard 250 watt
    Case
    Desktop 7.2" (183mm) W x 17.5" (445mm) L x 14.5"
    Cooling
    Dual case fans + CPU fan
    Keyboard
    Acer Windows PS/2
    Mouse
    Wireless Microsoft Arc
    Internet Speed
    54mbp/s
    Browser
    IE11
    Antivirus
    Defender
    Other Info
    Office Pro 2013 / Nokia Lumia 1520 Windows Phone 8.1DP GDR1
There have been lots of observations by users about the UI changes, how it is optimized for tablets, it is far from from ideal for their existing users, it is awkward, annoying, and so on.

Those things are true.

If that was all, many would overlook the UI annoyances as an inevitable part of a first attempt.


However, it goes deeper than that.

What many find utterly repugnant is the attempt to force users to the MS clouds.

The removal of the start menu is an example of that. Users are thrust to the start screen with it's aggressive marketing of MS online services. That is why they took it out - not because it is in any way a good thing for users.

There has been a pattern of this kind of behaviour .

(Not just with M$ but with many different large corporations in various consumer related businesses!)


I don't know what is driving MS to behave like this, but to many it smacks of arrogance, and/or treating customers like idiots.

It might just be blind panic as Mike suggests - I don't know.

I do know it is an appalling mistake.

I too have noticed this corporate arrogance towards the consumer, in many different businesses....I'd say within the past decade or so. A question is who or whom is fostering this attitude and what exactly are the motives, just more profit..or something more insidious? Paranoia, perhaps, but I think there is more to this aspect of things.

Regarding "The Cloud" while it may be beneficial the fact is it takes ALL the control of the independent users PC based data and puts it ALL into the hands of others, can we really put that much trust in total strangers today....NO WAY. NOT FOR A MINUTE!
 

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System One

  • OS
    win 7 home premium 64 bit
There have been lots of observations by users about the UI changes, how it is optimized for tablets, it is far from from ideal for their existing users, it is awkward, annoying, and so on.

Those things are true.

If that was all, many would overlook the UI annoyances as an inevitable part of a first attempt.


However, it goes deeper than that.

What many find utterly repugnant is the attempt to force users to the MS clouds.

The removal of the start menu is an example of that. Users are thrust to the start screen with it's aggressive marketing of MS online services. That is why they took it out - not because it is in any way a good thing for users.

There has been a pattern of this kind of behaviour .

I don't know what is driving MS to behave like this, but to many it smacks of arrogance, and/or treating customers like idiots.

It might just be blind panic as Mike suggests - I don't know.

I do know it is an appalling mistake.

Microsoft has ALWAYS been marketing their services: Windows Live. I guess it took a new OS to realize that...
 

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System One

  • OS
    Windows 8.1 Pro
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS
    CPU
    AMD FX 8320
    Motherboard
    Crosshair V Formula-Z
    Memory
    16 gig DDR3
    Graphics Card(s)
    ASUS R9 270
    Screen Resolution
    1440x900
    Hard Drives
    1 TB Seagate Barracuda (starting to hate Seagate)
    x2 3 TB Toshibas
    Windows 8.1 is installed on a SanDisk Ultra Plus 256 GB
    PSU
    OCZ 500 watt
    Case
    A current work in progres as I'll be building the physical case myself. It shall be fantastic.
    Cooling
    Arctic Cooler with 3 heatpipes
    Keyboard
    Logitech K750 wireless solar powered keyboard
    Mouse
    Microsoft Touch Mouse
    Browser
    Internet Explorer 11
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender, but I might go back on KIS 2014
There have been lots of observations by users about the UI changes, how it is optimized for tablets, it is far from from ideal for their existing users, it is awkward, annoying, and so on.

Those things are true.

If that was all, many would overlook the UI annoyances as an inevitable part of a first attempt.


However, it goes deeper than that.

What many find utterly repugnant is the attempt to force users to the MS clouds.

The removal of the start menu is an example of that. Users are thrust to the start screen with it's aggressive marketing of MS online services. That is why they took it out - not because it is in any way a good thing for users.

There has been a pattern of this kind of behaviour .

(Not just with M$ but with many different large corporations in various consumer related businesses!)


I don't know what is driving MS to behave like this, but to many it smacks of arrogance, and/or treating customers like idiots.

It might just be blind panic as Mike suggests - I don't know.

I do know it is an appalling mistake.

I too have noticed this corporate arrogance towards the consumer, in many different businesses....I'd say within the past decade or so. A question is who or whom is fostering this attitude and what exactly are the motives, just more profit..or something more insidious? Paranoia, perhaps, but I think there is more to this aspect of things.

Regarding "The Cloud" while it may be beneficial the fact is it takes ALL the control of the independent users PC based data and puts it ALL into the hands of others, can we really put that much trust in total strangers today....NO WAY. NOT FOR A MINUTE!

Let me guess, you still use the post office to send letters around to communicate with others? Or do you just simply tell them in person what you want to tell them?
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 8.1 Pro
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS
    CPU
    AMD FX 8320
    Motherboard
    Crosshair V Formula-Z
    Memory
    16 gig DDR3
    Graphics Card(s)
    ASUS R9 270
    Screen Resolution
    1440x900
    Hard Drives
    1 TB Seagate Barracuda (starting to hate Seagate)
    x2 3 TB Toshibas
    Windows 8.1 is installed on a SanDisk Ultra Plus 256 GB
    PSU
    OCZ 500 watt
    Case
    A current work in progres as I'll be building the physical case myself. It shall be fantastic.
    Cooling
    Arctic Cooler with 3 heatpipes
    Keyboard
    Logitech K750 wireless solar powered keyboard
    Mouse
    Microsoft Touch Mouse
    Browser
    Internet Explorer 11
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender, but I might go back on KIS 2014
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