What changed in 8.1??

DrBrown54

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I work for a software company that sells a graphics package based on .Net framework. We have a licensing system for serial numbers and protection as well. Our system worked on Windows XP thru 7 on both 32 and 64-bit. We also had it working on Win8 so long as the user set our program to run as the admin under the Compatibility tab. After a user updates to 8.1 the licensing system breaks. Even though the user has "activated" their serial numbers they get messages saying their registration is invalid.

So what kind of administrative level changes did MS make in the 8.1 service pack? Our issues are only present on 64-bit systems that came with Win8 and then updated to 8.1. If a PC had 8.1 from the factory it works with our tools. Reinstalling does nothing, so clearly something in the 8.1 update changed the UAC or admin permissions. When I check user PCs WINVER says all of them are v6.3 and build 9600.

Can anyone offer suggestions for things to look for? Our developers are stuck and we really don't know which direction to even look. Any comments would be appreciated! Thanks
 

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It's not a service pack by the way, its an OS upgrade. The Windows kernel was updated from 6.2 to 6.3 so technically its a new OS. I tried to hunt up something that compares one to the other but haven't had much luck. Most just list the new features added which isn't really what your after. 8 Things You Need to Know About Windows 8.1 Update | PCMag.com
 

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I guess it's not a true "service pack", but it is included as an automatic update. So when my customers call in with their problems that's what they call it. They are rubbing off on me! NOOO

While I can guarantee something changed behind the scenes, it's extremely odd that a store bough 8.1 system works while an updated OS does not. It defies logic heh.
 

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    Windows 7
This is going to sound like nit picking but, update 1 for 8.1 is an update though Windows Update. The upgrade from 8.0 to 8.1 is though the Windows Store and is not automatic. You have to go to the Store to be asked if you want it. Then select it and do it. I don't code or write Apps etc so I can't be of much help, sorry. All of my current installs are clean installs of 8.1 with update 1 via my TechNet ISO's. I've had nothing but issues with the store upgrade to 8.1 so I avoid doing it that way when I can.
 

My Computer

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  • OS
    Windows 10 Education 64 Bit
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    Asus
    CPU
    AMD Phenom II X4 980 Black Edition Deneb 3.7GHz
    Motherboard
    ASUS M4N68T-M V2 µATX Motherboard
    Memory
    8GB 4GBx2 Kingston PC10600 DDR3 1333 Memory
    Graphics Card(s)
    NVIDIA Geforce GT640 2 Gig DDR3 PCIe
    Sound Card
    VIA VT1708s High Definition Audio 8-channel Onboard
    Monitor(s) Displays
    22" LG E2242 1080p and 2 19" I-INC AG191D
    Screen Resolution
    1280x1024 - 1920x1080 - 1280x1024
    Hard Drives
    Crucial MX100 256 GB SSD and 500 GB WD Blue SATA
    PSU
    Thermaltake TR 620
    Case
    Power Up Black ATX Mid-Tower Case
    Cooling
    Stock heatsink fan
    Keyboard
    Logitech Wireless K350 Wave
    Mouse
    Logitech M570 Trackball and T650 TouchPad
    Internet Speed
    80 Mbps Down 30 Mbps Up
    Browser
    Internet Explorer 11
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    HP DVD1040e Lightscribe - External USB2

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    Linux Mint 17.2
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    Arris NVG589 Gateway; Router - Cisco RV320; Switch - Netgear GS108 8-Port Switch & Trendnet TEG-S50g 5-Port Switch; Access Points - Engenius ECB350, Trendnet TEW-638APB; NAS - Lenovo ix2-4; Printer - Brother HL-2280DW; Air Print Server - Lantronix XPrintServer

    A/V UPS - Tripp-Lite Smart 1500LCD 1500 Va/900 W.
You probably won't like this but it needs to be said.

It appears that the application is making some invalid assumptions about the environment in which it is running or relying on undocumented behavior. These are common application compatibility issues. There have been many significant changes in Windows 8.1 and it is possible that the problem is due to one of them. Or maybe not. It may be due to a change in the OS documented by MSDN. Or maybe the application is assuming behavior that is merely an implementation detail and not part of the contract. Such behavior is subject to change at any time without notice. The Microsoft developer may have made an optimization, fixed a bug, or merely cleaned up the code. And probably unaware that it may have compatibility issues. And it wouldn't if the application was behaving properly.

I can see one issue in the application, probably unrelated to the problem. Specifically "We also had it working on Windows 8 so long as the user set our program to run as the admin under the Compatibility tab". In the words of Raymond Chen regarding applications relying on compatibility settings: "Don't touch that knob; the knob is there for the customer, not for the program. And it's there to clean up after your mistakes, not to let you hide behind them."

Application compatibility layers are there for the customer, not for the program - The Old New Thing - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

The blog is by Raymond Chen, a Microsoft developer since about 1992 and active in application compatibility.

I am only am amateur programmer but have read much about application compatibility.
 

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The big underlying issue is our software uses a sequel database, which must be granted admin permission. There is no way around it at this time. So I agree that this particular "knob" should just be left alone but it's just not possible at this stage.

What continues to baffle me is this setup will work perfectly on a Win8.1 64-bit system that came from the store that way. But if someone upgraded from Win8 64 to 8.1, no dice. In theory, all background OS shell code should operate identical once the 8 is updated. We certainly aren't excluding fault of our developers for this issue, it's just we need to understand the WHY before we can begin to create a fix. If there are no differences according to MS, it's impossible to fix.
 

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  • OS
    Windows 7
An app should never be granted admin permissions. Same with the SQL dbase it uses. Looks like whomever engineered this software. Needs to go back to the drawing board.

8.1 has made it so that it keeps problems from happening, when rogue software attempts to run elevated as admin. It is to protect the OS from the user and software. Why MS did this with 8.1.x.
 

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    12GB
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    AMD Radeon™ HD 7310 Graphics
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    LCD
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    1366 x 768
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    Crucial M500 240GB SSD
    Mouse
    Logitech M525
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    45/6 - ATT U-Verse
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    Google Chrome
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    None needed. It is Linux.
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    Arris NVG589 Gateway; Router - Cisco RV320; Switch - Netgear GS108 8-Port Switch & Trendnet TEG-S50g 5-Port Switch; Access Points - Engenius ECB350, Trendnet TEW-638APB; NAS - Lenovo ix2-4; Printer - Brother HL-2280DW; Air Print Server - Lantronix XPrintServer

    A/V UPS - Tripp-Lite Smart 1500LCD 1500 Va/900 W.
I know of MANY apps that use SQL and require admin rights. It was never a problem until the invention of UAC. I still agree we need to change our application to stop requiring admin permission but the point I made is still unanswered; it works on Win8 but not 8.1. We just need to know what was changed.
 

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  • OS
    Windows 7
You will have to dig through the Technet stuff. I would contact Microsoft and work with their engineers. There are a couple of the MVP's on here and a few other boards that can help you work on figuring this out.

Most like myself are not even digging into 8.1 at this point. Most of us are still using Windows 7 or stuff like MySQL for dbase management.
 

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    System Manufacturer/Model
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    CPU
    AMD E1-1200 APU with Radeon (tm) HD Graphics 1.40 GHZ
    Memory
    12GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    AMD Radeon™ HD 7310 Graphics
    Sound Card
    Realtek HD
    Monitor(s) Displays
    LCD
    Screen Resolution
    1366 x 768
    Hard Drives
    Crucial M500 240GB SSD
    Mouse
    Logitech M525
    Internet Speed
    45/6 - ATT U-Verse
    Browser
    Google Chrome
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    None needed. It is Linux.
    Other Info
    Arris NVG589 Gateway; Router - Cisco RV320; Switch - Netgear GS108 8-Port Switch & Trendnet TEG-S50g 5-Port Switch; Access Points - Engenius ECB350, Trendnet TEW-638APB; NAS - Lenovo ix2-4; Printer - Brother HL-2280DW; Air Print Server - Lantronix XPrintServer

    A/V UPS - Tripp-Lite Smart 1500LCD 1500 Va/900 W.
The one person that has had issues with Windows 8.x.x. Is the creator of UVerse Realtime. He has had to use work around's to get his software to work with Windows 8.1. Even with Windows 8. He had to use a work around of having users manually install certain software items. Vs. with his installer that Windows would kill half way through. All because of the extra security measures that Microsoft implemented.
 

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  • OS
    Linux Mint 17.2
    Computer type
    Laptop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    Toshiba Satellite C850D-st3nx1
    CPU
    AMD E1-1200 APU with Radeon (tm) HD Graphics 1.40 GHZ
    Memory
    12GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    AMD Radeon™ HD 7310 Graphics
    Sound Card
    Realtek HD
    Monitor(s) Displays
    LCD
    Screen Resolution
    1366 x 768
    Hard Drives
    Crucial M500 240GB SSD
    Mouse
    Logitech M525
    Internet Speed
    45/6 - ATT U-Verse
    Browser
    Google Chrome
    Antivirus
    None needed. It is Linux.
    Other Info
    Arris NVG589 Gateway; Router - Cisco RV320; Switch - Netgear GS108 8-Port Switch & Trendnet TEG-S50g 5-Port Switch; Access Points - Engenius ECB350, Trendnet TEW-638APB; NAS - Lenovo ix2-4; Printer - Brother HL-2280DW; Air Print Server - Lantronix XPrintServer

    A/V UPS - Tripp-Lite Smart 1500LCD 1500 Va/900 W.

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Linux Mint 17.2
    Computer type
    Laptop
    System Manufacturer/Model
    Toshiba Satellite C850D-st3nx1
    CPU
    AMD E1-1200 APU with Radeon (tm) HD Graphics 1.40 GHZ
    Memory
    12GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    AMD Radeon™ HD 7310 Graphics
    Sound Card
    Realtek HD
    Monitor(s) Displays
    LCD
    Screen Resolution
    1366 x 768
    Hard Drives
    Crucial M500 240GB SSD
    Mouse
    Logitech M525
    Internet Speed
    45/6 - ATT U-Verse
    Browser
    Google Chrome
    Antivirus
    None needed. It is Linux.
    Other Info
    Arris NVG589 Gateway; Router - Cisco RV320; Switch - Netgear GS108 8-Port Switch & Trendnet TEG-S50g 5-Port Switch; Access Points - Engenius ECB350, Trendnet TEW-638APB; NAS - Lenovo ix2-4; Printer - Brother HL-2280DW; Air Print Server - Lantronix XPrintServer

    A/V UPS - Tripp-Lite Smart 1500LCD 1500 Va/900 W.
Thanks for those links. After browsing through them, they don't really apply to the specific issue we are seeing but I'll keep those bookmarked.

I forgot all about C-sharp corner. When I first got into coding they were great help. That is also the language this particular app is built on. Might be a good source to find new programmers! :D
 

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  • OS
    Windows 7
Reminds me of this - When I was messing about writing a diagnostic tool for Win8...

EnvCom.png


Just to explain: I was retrieving the OS version on Windows 8.1 and it reported the incorrect build/Version (i.e. that of Windows 8.0) from the Environment class component.

The way to fix it is via app.manifest.

Code:
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Consolas]<compatibility xmlns="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:compatibility.v1">[/FONT][/COLOR]
    <application>      <!-- A list of all Windows versions that this application is designed to work with.       Windows will automatically select the most compatible environment.-->      <!-- If your application is designed to work with Windows Vista, uncomment the following supportedOS node-->      <!--<supportedOS Id="{e2011457-1546-43c5-a5fe-008deee3d3f0}"></supportedOS>-->      <!-- If your application is designed to work with Windows 7, uncomment the following supportedOS node-->      <supportedOS Id="{35138b9a-5d96-4fbd-8e2d-a2440225f93a}"/>      <!-- If your application is designed to work with Windows 8, uncomment the following supportedOS node-->      <!--<supportedOS Id="{4a2f28e3-53b9-4441-ba9c-d69d4a4a6e38}"></supportedOS>-->      <!-- If your application is designed to work with Windows 8.1, uncomment the following supportedOS node-->      <!--<supportedOS Id="{1f676c76-80e1-4239-95bb-83d0f6d0da78}"/>-->    </application> [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Consolas]  </compatibility>[/FONT][/COLOR]
 

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